With toxic, dysfunctional, narcissistic, abusive Counterfeit People disagreeing = rejection. There is no Agreeing to Disagree in the Land of Narcissism. Oh you just gave me something to add to my list of How to Expose Narcissistic Vamps, just disagree w/them and prepare for the fight of your life, because to a Narcissistic Counterfeit Person not accepting their viewpoint means not accepting them--this is why they take it so very personal and discussions always turn into vicious wars, where winner takes all. WoW, another piece of the puzzle, thanks CZ!
Since I was born into the Land of Narcissism, the only thing that I was stunned about was that normal people don't interact this way? Really, we can just Agree to Disagree and everyone can be totally okay with that? In the Land of Narcissism there are only winners or losers, and a discussion which has turned into an argument which has escalated into a full blown fight never ends unless someone admits defeat by claiming to the victor; Yes, you're right and I was wrong.
I remember a moment back in college when my boyfriend (now husband) & I started an innocent discussion on where we should hang a particular painting. The discussion, went to an argument and escalated to a full blown attack w/me degrading his talent and questioning his ability to be a successful designer in the future.
Why he didn't leave that night amazes me. I was his biggest fan & supporter up until that moment and just because he disagreed with me, in an instant it was WW3. I don't know what came over me. I never acted like that the 3 previous years we were together. At the time we wrote it off as extreme PMS, but looking back I now know it was Learned Behavior triggered by the fact that we were setting up house. In the Land of Narcissism equality between two people does not exist. A house has room for only one ruler, either rule or be ruled. You either show dominance or be dominated. Been there, done that, not going to do that again. In the Land of Narcissism the Nparents constantly fought with each other. I knew I wanted the opposite of that relationship, so if they fought all the time, then if I found my soul-mate it would mean that we would have to never fight & agree all the time, even on the small stuff, like the placement of a painting on a wall. If we agreed about everything, surely that was the sign that we were meant to be together. If Nparents fought all the time and finally got a divorce, the opposite of that, the Ideal Love, Real Love, True Love meant always agreeing with one another. I was also in my early 20's, so that could have had played apart too. Even with the Young-Love/Ideal-Love way of thinking, a normal person would conclude okay he disagrees with me so I guess we are not soul mates end of conversation, but not me. Rejecting my opinion meant rejecting me and I took it very personal that night and went for the attack. I didn't even have to think about it, one ugly statement after another until I badly hurt the one person who truly loved me. Wow, I was raised to be a N! My H refers to this night as the night I was possessed by an evil demon. Now we know the evil demon has a name N Vamp Mom. I was copying what Nparents did to one another w/out thinking. So what stopped me from becoming a full blown card carrying N? It was the extreme hurt I saw in my best-friends/boyfriends eyes, knowing that I was the cause of his pain, that painful truth convicted me in that very moment. You know I can't even remember what that darn painting was a picture of, I will have to ask H if he remembers. All I remember is the pain I placed in his eyes and that I never want to do that again to my best-friend. Thank you God for the Spirit of Conviction--it is such a blessing and saved our relationship. That weekend we promised one another that we would not let things get out of control and that it is okay to Agree to Disagree. And of course what happens when you have learned something new. . . another test.
While at an Italian ice cream shoppe we discussed which ice cream flavor we were going to choose to romantically share together. He wanted plain vanilla and I wanted chocolate w/something else added to it, almonds, brownie (I can't remember). If I went w/his choice, that meant I had to give up what I wanted and if we went w/my choice that meant he had to give up something he wanted. His choice wasn't hurting anyone, so why did I get so defensive? I had to give up things my whole life, so I wasn't going to lose the Battle of Ice Creams. Before I knew it, I found myself saying plain vanilla is a boring choice, only boring people pick plain vanilla, and you're not a boring person sweetheart, so lets go with a flavor that is more enjoyable and interesting, like (my choice). Well, this discussion turned into an argument thanks to my judgmental comments. When my H repeated back to me what I had just said, it convicted me. I was once again judging his choice & opinion and just because it was different than mine it didn't mean that it was automatically wrong and that I should diminish, devalue, and disrespect it--or disrespect him. I was humbled by his honesty on how I made him feel by judging his choice. I was remorseful and determined to change and not do this again. Sure we could have gone with his choice, or my choice, or choose the option neither of us considered at first, where the both of us benefit, which is to compromise and have Chocolate & Vanilla. We discovered that day The Art of Compromising and that Chocolate & Vanilla are better together than they ever were apart. Sometimes there are no right or wrong choices/answers. Sometimes it's just about Chocolate or Vanilla. To this day, if Handsome Husband and I have a disagreement we will ask one another, Is this a Chocolate or Vanilla discussion? When at all possible we go for the combo. We also agree that the choices we come up with are just suggestions that we each get to decide on, neither of us own a certain choice, it is just an option and if the option that a certain person just happened to came up with doesn't get selected, then it doesn't mean that it is a rejection of that person, because it is only an option and nothing more. The world will not come to an end, and we wont spontaneously explode if the option we came up with doesn't get selected. Nowadays we don't spend our energy on defending a certain option, instead we challenge ourselves to make sure that we have discovered all the possible options. We don't decide what is best for him, or what is best for me. We don't even limit ourselves to keeping track & taking turns. We don't decide well last time we went with your choice, so this time we have to go with mine. We decide what is best for us. What will benefit us the most.
I remember a moment back in college when my boyfriend (now husband) & I started an innocent discussion on where we should hang a particular painting. The discussion, went to an argument and escalated to a full blown attack w/me degrading his talent and questioning his ability to be a successful designer in the future.
Why he didn't leave that night amazes me. I was his biggest fan & supporter up until that moment and just because he disagreed with me, in an instant it was WW3. I don't know what came over me. I never acted like that the 3 previous years we were together. At the time we wrote it off as extreme PMS, but looking back I now know it was Learned Behavior triggered by the fact that we were setting up house. In the Land of Narcissism equality between two people does not exist. A house has room for only one ruler, either rule or be ruled. You either show dominance or be dominated. Been there, done that, not going to do that again. In the Land of Narcissism the Nparents constantly fought with each other. I knew I wanted the opposite of that relationship, so if they fought all the time, then if I found my soul-mate it would mean that we would have to never fight & agree all the time, even on the small stuff, like the placement of a painting on a wall. If we agreed about everything, surely that was the sign that we were meant to be together. If Nparents fought all the time and finally got a divorce, the opposite of that, the Ideal Love, Real Love, True Love meant always agreeing with one another. I was also in my early 20's, so that could have had played apart too. Even with the Young-Love/Ideal-Love way of thinking, a normal person would conclude okay he disagrees with me so I guess we are not soul mates end of conversation, but not me. Rejecting my opinion meant rejecting me and I took it very personal that night and went for the attack. I didn't even have to think about it, one ugly statement after another until I badly hurt the one person who truly loved me. Wow, I was raised to be a N! My H refers to this night as the night I was possessed by an evil demon. Now we know the evil demon has a name N Vamp Mom. I was copying what Nparents did to one another w/out thinking. So what stopped me from becoming a full blown card carrying N? It was the extreme hurt I saw in my best-friends/boyfriends eyes, knowing that I was the cause of his pain, that painful truth convicted me in that very moment. You know I can't even remember what that darn painting was a picture of, I will have to ask H if he remembers. All I remember is the pain I placed in his eyes and that I never want to do that again to my best-friend. Thank you God for the Spirit of Conviction--it is such a blessing and saved our relationship. That weekend we promised one another that we would not let things get out of control and that it is okay to Agree to Disagree. And of course what happens when you have learned something new. . . another test.While at an Italian ice cream shoppe we discussed which ice cream flavor we were going to choose to romantically share together. He wanted plain vanilla and I wanted chocolate w/something else added to it, almonds, brownie (I can't remember). If I went w/his choice, that meant I had to give up what I wanted and if we went w/my choice that meant he had to give up something he wanted. His choice wasn't hurting anyone, so why did I get so defensive? I had to give up things my whole life, so I wasn't going to lose the Battle of Ice Creams. Before I knew it, I found myself saying plain vanilla is a boring choice, only boring people pick plain vanilla, and you're not a boring person sweetheart, so lets go with a flavor that is more enjoyable and interesting, like (my choice). Well, this discussion turned into an argument thanks to my judgmental comments. When my H repeated back to me what I had just said, it convicted me. I was once again judging his choice & opinion and just because it was different than mine it didn't mean that it was automatically wrong and that I should diminish, devalue, and disrespect it--or disrespect him. I was humbled by his honesty on how I made him feel by judging his choice. I was remorseful and determined to change and not do this again. Sure we could have gone with his choice, or my choice, or choose the option neither of us considered at first, where the both of us benefit, which is to compromise and have Chocolate & Vanilla. We discovered that day The Art of Compromising and that Chocolate & Vanilla are better together than they ever were apart. Sometimes there are no right or wrong choices/answers. Sometimes it's just about Chocolate or Vanilla. To this day, if Handsome Husband and I have a disagreement we will ask one another, Is this a Chocolate or Vanilla discussion? When at all possible we go for the combo. We also agree that the choices we come up with are just suggestions that we each get to decide on, neither of us own a certain choice, it is just an option and if the option that a certain person just happened to came up with doesn't get selected, then it doesn't mean that it is a rejection of that person, because it is only an option and nothing more. The world will not come to an end, and we wont spontaneously explode if the option we came up with doesn't get selected. Nowadays we don't spend our energy on defending a certain option, instead we challenge ourselves to make sure that we have discovered all the possible options. We don't decide what is best for him, or what is best for me. We don't even limit ourselves to keeping track & taking turns. We don't decide well last time we went with your choice, so this time we have to go with mine. We decide what is best for us. What will benefit us the most.
Here's the truly bizarre thing about the narcissist-who-appears-to-be-in-agreement with your big, fat opinions:
ReplyDeletethey're LYING.
they say whatever needs to be said at the time (truly Machiavellian) but inside themselves, they are stockpiling RESENTMENT.
A covert narcissist might not dare disagree if it will threaten the relationship BEFORE they have garnered alternatives (or back-up supply). At some point though, you'll be slammed with a giant list of grievances for SILENCING THEM.
it's so crazy-making.
We used to live in France and that was my first experience 'agreeing to disagree'. I remember the first dinner party we attended when my French neighbors were shouting over the fondue pot and it scared me a little. LOL
By the time dessert was served, they were hugging and kissing each other like the Best Friends in the World.
I learned that it was OKAY to have a different opinion than others. That is was IMPORTANT to let other people define their differences as their particular viewpoint. I learned that DIFFERENCE was to be respected and encouraged.
that's NOT how it is in most American relationships, though. *wink*
I could write for days about everything the French people taught me. Our four-five years living abroad were extremely valuable in helping me see beyond Mutual Agreement and Seething Resentment.
ha!
Hugs,
CZ
CZ, You actually traveled across the sea to find your Land of Love. You know life is meant to be enjoyed and I don't find enjoyment in arguing, which totally goes against the way of life in The Land of Narcissism. Now that I live in the Land of Love I found that expressing one's viewpoint & preferences is different than arguing until a winner & loser is declared. French Vanilla is actually one of my favorite ice creams that goes great w/American Apple Pie.
ReplyDeleteHey, best wishes to all. Luv this site.
ReplyDeleteEver get into an argument w/ an N over a movie or TV show that you've seen but they haven't? Back in the late 90's when I was debilitated for awhile from an accident (whatever N VanHelsing said that whenever your circumstances change for the worse and you come under their thumb, the opportunity for abuse w/out impunity goes way up was RIGHT ON)I would occasionally watch Seinfeld on my bedroom TV while my N mom was downstairs watching her nonstop political shows. Around that time she started disapproving of Jerry Seinfeld because he was dating that much younger chick in real life (always the moralizers, those Ns, even tho their own pasts are a lot more houndstoothed than most people's) but at any rate she had never ever seen the show but somehow knew precisely how talky and New Yorky and Woody Allen litey and whatever other stereotypey it was, and one day she said something about how twisted and cruel it was to make light of a woman who pathetically hangs around w/an ex-boyfriend while he dates all these other women. I tried to tell her that that wasn't what it was like at all between Jerry&Elaine, that while yes the premise was that they used to date, they mostly ribbed each other about their current love lives, and they had Elaine with almost as many different guys as they had him with girls. But no, she would have none of it, kept reiterating her way-off point. Then suddenly she turned to me w/that disgusted mean look I knew so well and said, "How do you know so much about it?" When I told her that I sometimes watched it she flew into an N rage about how could I watch such trash under HER roof and actually tried to forbid me to watch it again! (I was only almost 30 at the time so I guess I should've asked my mommy's permission)
Fast fwd to years later when I moved 1/2 way across the country close to my dad& his relatives and the relationship w/ N mom consisted mostly of phone calls, she'd often ask me about what movies I'd seen lately. 9 times out of 10 I'd mention one that she hadn't seen and never would see (SHE never went to R rated movies as she'd forever tell anyone who'd listen) but when I tried to tell her what I thought of it she fire back all these statements she got from the movie reviews in a weekly conservative she subscribed to trying to "prove" I was wrong about a movie I'd seen and she hadn't! I told her I'd gladly discuss a movie with anyone as long as they'd also seen it, and of course they didn't have to agree with me, but I'd be dipped if I was gonna argue with somebody who hadn't even seen it. That would be that for awhile but before long she'd do the same thing all over again. But as we all know they never really change.
Over and peace out, LMH
Hey, best wishes to all. Luv this site.
ReplyDeleteEver get into an argument w/ an N over a movie or TV show that you've seen but they haven't? Back in the late 90's when I was debilitated for awhile from an accident (whatever N VanHelsing said that whenever your circumstances change for the worse and you come under their thumb, the opportunity for abuse w/out impunity goes way up was RIGHT ON)I would occasionally watch Seinfeld on my bedroom TV while my N mom was downstairs watching her nonstop political shows. Around that time she started disapproving of Jerry Seinfeld because he was dating that much younger chick in real life (always the moralizers, those Ns, even tho their own pasts are a lot more houndstoothed than most people's) but at any rate she had never ever seen the show but somehow knew precisely how talky and New Yorky and Woody Allen litey and whatever other stereotypey it was, and one day she said something about how twisted and cruel it was to make light of a woman who pathetically hangs around w/an ex-boyfriend while he dates all these other women. I tried to tell her that that wasn't what it was like at all between Jerry&Elaine, that while yes the premise was that they used to date, they mostly ribbed each other about their current love lives, and they had Elaine with almost as many different guys as they had him with girls. But no, she would have none of it, kept reiterating her way-off point. Then suddenly she turned to me w/that disgusted mean look I knew so well and said, "How do you know so much about it?" When I told her that I sometimes watched it she flew into an N rage about how could I watch such trash under HER roof and actually tried to forbid me to watch it again! (I was only almost 30 at the time so I guess I should've asked my mommy's permission)
Fast fwd to years later when I moved 1/2 way across the country close to my dad& his relatives and the relationship w/ N mom consisted mostly of phone calls, she'd often ask me about what movies I'd seen lately. 9 times out of 10 I'd mention one that she hadn't seen and never would see (SHE never went to R rated movies as she'd forever tell anyone who'd listen) but when I tried to tell her what I thought of it she fire back all these statements she got from the movie reviews in a weekly conservative she subscribed to trying to "prove" I was wrong about a movie I'd seen and she hadn't! I told her I'd gladly discuss a movie with anyone as long as they'd also seen it, and of course they didn't have to agree with me, but I'd be dipped if I was gonna argue with somebody who hadn't even seen it. That would be that for awhile but before long she'd do the same thing all over again. But as we all know they never really change.
Over and peace out, LMH