The Relationship Red Flags & Deal Breakers, How to Expose a Narcissistic/Psychopathic Vampire

How to Expose Narcissistic Vampires. . . aka

The Relationship Red Flags And Deal Breakers.

(1) Hold a mirror up to them and watch them insist that the mirror must be broken!

(2) We can also expose these evil Vamps through the stupid & telling things they say:

Can you believe she is keeping my grandchild/ren from me?
The N purposefully chooses to describe your child/ren as her grandchild/ren.
The N could say, Can you believe she is keeping her children from me, but doesn't.
Why? N's see people as things to own, use, replace, and throw away, therefore anyone or anything of importance (meaning they can get NS from) they own.
N's must at all times have the position of power. By referring to your children as my grandchildren the N is marking his/her territory. Yes, your child is the tree that the Ndog is pissing all over. Next time your Counterfeit Parent demands to see her grandchildren, I pray this helpful graphic image will be brought to your mind, and you wont fall into the trap of guilt & obligation and get caught up in the illusion that your child/ren should have a loving grandparent, remember it is only an illusion, so that the Counterfeit can use you as target practice while in disguise of "just wanting to visit with my grandchildren."
N fails to realize that going NC is not about keeping your children away from N, but keeping N away from you and not seeing the grandchild/ren is a natural consequence for not first and foremost having a healthy relationship with her own child (you). If the N had his/her priorities straight & valued you, then s/he would be motivated to healyour relationship first and the natural consequence/reward would be that the N would get to have a healthy relationship with his/her grandchild/ren. N's really are stupid & pathdic things, and that is why they project it on to us. When you see them for who they really are it is not too hard to out smart them!

Well then, to hell with him/her! = Which means I wish my child the worst possible outcome. I wish him/her to experience pain & torture and everything that hell represents. And yes, some N's actually hope you end up in hell, not because you did something to purposely hurt them or that you did something wrong according to society's standards, but because you cut them off of their NS.

Barbara, who commented to this post, just reminded me that when the N. Vamps say their evil statements/comments -- Remember, like with all Narcissists it is ALWAYS about them and NEVER about us. Therefore, grab your Magic Decoder-Ring or Mirror of Truth and decode those ugly projected lies. Narcissists project how they feel about themselves on to others. Therefore any evil statement they say about others really applies to them. Hence the NVampMom statement above is her confession that, "Well then, to hell with me!" I guess it really does suck to be her. Funny thing is she hates the heat! Well, I guess she should move to Death Valley, hottest place on Earth, and try to get use to it before the big day comes! What a shock for her!

(3) We can also expose these Narcissistic Vamps through the hurtful things they do:

The Litmus Test of a Narcissist is the D&D!
The evidence of D&D, or D to the 4th power, Dissed, Dismissed, Devalued, and Discarded and the required lack of empathy to pull it off.

The fact that Narcissistic Sister (NS)#1 knows how it feels to be Rejected & Discarded and she not only does it to me/her Sister, and my H/her BIL, who has been there for her emotionally & financially, she does it to my little innocent DD and most importantly NS #1 knows that my D misses her & her cousins (because she left messages on her cell saying that very thing), and she still D&D us. To D&D Adults that is Horrible, but to do that to a young Child that is beyond Cruel! No way around it, excuses are all gone, Selfish Sibling has become calloused & a cold-hearted N herself! -- or maybe she has always had this in her and I never saw it until now?

(4) They believe in stereotypes and promote and encourage hatred towards others.

A HUGE Red Flag for me for identifying Ns is that they believe and perpetuate stereotypes and promote & encourage hatred towards others. The Momster was/is a Hate Monger hated anyone who was not just like her. She would say she was/is a feminist, but she is not she hates women who are not just like her. She targets and preys upon loving, kind and generous People Pleasures and instead of praising them for all the sacrifice they have done for her, she puts them down behind their backs overtly and to their face covertly and ambiently by trashing other people that her friends/prey identify with.

To quote Anna, "Narcissism Sucks!" and destroys.

Both real & humorous comments welcomed.
Looking forward to seeing what everyone has to say!

(5) Compartmentalize in order to Divide and Conquer

They create animosity between various parties because they are afraid of the various parties meeting, comparing notes and discovering exactly what the Princes (and Kings, Queens & Princesses) of Darkness have been up to and what lies they have told. ~ Liberty

Your ex-N is highly likely to create hatred between you and his new supply. He will even keep his CHILDREN and his new supply apart if necessary.

During my ex-N's latest hoovering attempt, after admitting that he had been lying to people (including OW) for more than two years, by telling them that I had refused to allow him to see our sons; I asked him why he had never introduced our children to OW, even though their affair had started four years earlier, we are divorced and he had been living with OW on and off for two years.

Our sons didn't know anything about their own father's live-in partner, what her name was or what she looked like. They had never been to the home he had shared with her for TWO YEARS and they didn't even know she had two boys of her own......

He replied, "Because she wasn't fit to be around them. She's not even nice to her own kids".

Er...right. So why the heck have you been living with a woman who is allegedly 'not fit to be around' your children??????

"Because you wouldn't have me back and you know I can't live alone"

Hmmm. What he really meant was :-

"I'm afraid that if she gets to know them, she might ask them if I ever assaulted you and treated you like dirt and they might tell her the truth and say that yes, I did do those things and more. And then she would know for sure that you're not the bitter, lying ex-wife I convinced her you are. She would know for sure that you're not the crazy psycho; that I am " ~ Liberty


For those of us who were born and raised in the KoN this plays out through the different roles & duties we are assigned to carry out by the NKing (NF) and/or NQueen (NM). In each KoN there is an Evil Ruler, the N followed by the Golden Child which could be the Spouse or a Selected Child (in my DH's family the youngest child was the Golden Child and favored even over the Spouse (thus the extra martial relationship he had w/OW or OO 'other object"). Now I know why the youngest child was the favored Golden Child, because she was the youngest she was the Perfect Mirror or Perfect Puppet, she could reflect back to the N his false self, and in her eyes he was a Hero when in reality the other kids were discovering he was a Horror due to his Dictatorship and later discovered second Life with OO. After the Golden Child comes the other various Enablers based on the hierarchy of Favoritism Totem Pole with the Scapegoat aka Whipping Girl or Boy at the bottom. In the KoN I was born into the Momster's Golden Child was whoever was the best mirror and reflected back to her exactly what she thought and felt about everything and everyone. The Momster was/is a Hate Monger who hates everyone who is not just like her. She will tell anyone who will listen that she does know what happened to her 3 girls, they were so good, until they each reached the age of 16 and then they were horrible. Each one of them if though they are years about when they turned 16 they were just terrible to be around. To listen to her you would think that we were Troubled Teens or some sort of Thugs, but the truth is that all of us were Good Kids, did not get into drugs, did not sleep around, did not go out and party, always knew where we were and who we were hanging out with, all made the Honor Roll and both School Counselors and Teachers consistently said that we were one of their top students, yet to the Momster we Awful Kids.

The definition of a Nparent to be a Great Kid meant that we had to be a Great Mirror and reflect back only what the Momster wanted to see which was her False Self. We also had to be a Good Little Puppet and let the Momster control our every thought, feeling, and movement. We even had to be dressed in the clothes she picked out for us to wear. How dare us have any independent thoughts and feelings of our own. And whenever she felt like emotionally and physically abusing us we too Shut Up and Put Up. I am the eldest of 3 so actually before the age of 16 more like 12 I physically started fighting back the Momster, and when she was clearly wrong as when she was verbally and emotionally abusing my Siblings or myself I spoke up. My Siblings watched me Struggle for my Independence and cut the strings of the Puppet Master, and they started doing the same, I guess the biggest change according to the Momster happened around 16. Funny I can't remember any particular event that happened.

As the Three Little Puppets grew up we started to stand our ground with the Momster and the overt abuse decreased, but that did not stop the Momster she found more sinister and covert methods to torture what she would refer to as her Bad Little Puppets. She did not actually call us that, she used other words that she projected on to her puppets that made us feel Lesser-Than. Whomever was the Good Little Puppet escaped or at lessoned the abuse. I was hardly ever a Good Little Puppet. I was the Eldest and I wanted to protect the younger puppets, so I was usually the Scapegoat until the Scapegoat escaped off to College. Although all 3 Puppets grew up in the same house we never really had what people would call a close relationship and now I know why the Divide and Conquer technique which had a Life Long effect on each of us. Even though we became adults we never became close to one another, Time was spent together, but intimacy was not shared (I know now why because both Sibs are not only Damaged but they are also Disordered and lack empathy, thus no empathy no intimacy).

I think around 16 we all started going our own separate ways. Living in the KoN and being the Momster's Enemy #1 Target #1 was extremely stressful and I wanted to escape whenever I could, so that is when I spent most of my time w/my HS boyfriend and friends when I was allowed to escape. I couldn't wait to get to College and start my Life, because up until then my Life was controlled by the Momster aka Evil Puppet Master. I mapped out my life, my major, my career goal and went for it. I only returned to the KoN when I had to and for Special Events like Birthdays & Holidays. I guess my Sibs and I had a Hallmark Relationship although I had no word of it at the time. We all lived separate lives and it took until we were in our 20's that we started comparing notes w/each other regarding the Momster.

It took us years to realize that the Momster doesn't just have a "different perception of reality", but that she is a pathological liar who lies about people and situations in order to cover up the hurtful things she does. The only way all 3 Puppets got on the same page was through our own personal series of D&D by the Momster. We realized that she lied about us, so it is no surprise that she lied about the other Sibs too. The lower level Nsis gets this what is going on w/the Momsters Divide and Conquer tech. because her own DH has pointed it out to her years ago and I confirmed what he observed. However, although the med level Nsis says she realizes that if the Momster can totally lie about her that she could also be doing the same about the other two, yet she still give the Momster the benefit of the doubt in that "it's the Momster's perception of reality". So even though med level Nsis says she gets it, she really doesn't, plus she is also a N so lying is not a natural expected thing for her, a part of life, like breathing, it just happens.

(6) Let this become a red flag for you: When you are with someone who makes you feel as if you can't show your true feelings you are probably with a Narcissist.

(7) Rage back to the N, like turning off the N's rage.

When kids know the only reason why the Nparent wants them is to keep them from the Normal Parent.

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"The magnitude of what they do" ~ SEFG

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flipping a switch. ~ Litha

-- that's a good way to expose the N, but risky & dangerous because if you do the Mirroring Back tech. you might expose a Psycho instead of a N because that could escalate the situation to physical abuse. I believe that you trusted your intuition/instinct in this situation and knew you had a N on your hands & was just waiting for the confirmation. It only took you a week or so to go NC -- wow!



I love what SEFG said

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N sees the kids like prescious metal jewels & you see your kids as jewels of the heart... they know the difference. ~

SEFG

With N's disagreeing = rejection. There is no Agreeing to Disagree in the Kingdom of Narcissism aka The KoN. Oh you just gave me something to add to my list of How to Exposing N Vamps, just disagree w/them and prepare for the fight of your life, because to a N not accepting their viewpoint means not accepting them--this is why they take it so very personal and discussions always turn into vicious wars, where winner takes all. WoW, another piece of the puzzle,

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What he was really doing was laying the groundwork for our future relationship - one in which I was very cautious to express my needs, wants, or desires. It was at that point that I started editing myself. Heavens! The last thing I wanted was a repeat performance of his histrionics that day. It only went downhill from there.~ Proud2B

Is there a certain term for the N's laying the groundwork as you described & the over-the-top histrionics?

My husband just started a new job and you just described what happened to him, not over a meal, but the histrionics was the same. It is a way that the N's begin to dominate & control. It is a way for them to test the waters even in a a Male to Male relationship. My Husband politely said, you okay Man?

(8) When the N compares you to their Parent, Sibling, Past Girlfriend, or Friend that they detest or hate, because they feel that person has betrayed them in some horrible way.

You know those old sayings are old for a reason -- there true! The one I am thinking about is, before you marry discover what the relationship was really like between your future spouse and their parents. Investigate look for the conflicting evidence. And then ask yourself, if it is this hard to find out the truth, then do I really want to marry into this nightmare?

The Momster would always say we were just like her Mother or our BioDad, both of which the Momster that were the worst in the world.

I don't know where the research is on the Mirroring Back the Rage of the N, but it is a good Research Topic and doesn't take nearly as long as it use to back in the day before Google & the Internet. The Idealized Partners or Friends of Ns (The Perfect Mirrors) are held to a different standard and we can NOT rage back to a N, at least not a Mid to High Level N. There is the chance that the N will back down, but s/he only does so with the Agenda for Revenge. Your Mirrored Rage will be seen as an Extreme Betrayal in their pathological minds which will fuel their Narcissistic Injury and they will not be satisfied until they make us suffer. There is no Equality in the KoN. The Ns can rage against us, but we had better not do the same to them. They Can Dish It Out, But They Won't Take It For more details on that Click Here..

When the N has told you that you remind him/her of someone they detest or has hurt them or betrayed them, take note, you are putting yourself in Danger if you Mirror Back the N's rage. The N will Transfer the feelings of contempt for the Person the N compared you to -- now to you, and all that suppressed rage & violence that the N could not express on the other Person will be released onto you which means your very Life & those you Love could be in gave danger. It is a scary thing when you realize that you are Married, Dating, or are Friends with Norman Bates and you are now the Mama Substitute in which the N seeks his/her Revenge.

There is a look to crazy. If you see the whites of their eyes (white all around the pupil) you are in Danger, because that is the sign of Madness.

There are actual detectable physical transformations to madness! Of course Hollywood takes it to the extreme, but the signs are still there if you know what to look for and the FOG of denial isn't too thick to blind our vision!

When the N is not looking for a Goddess or Earth Mother to plant his seed, he might look for someone who is Reactionary. Ns are Puppet Masters and know how to pull our strings in order to get their NS. They know what and when to push the buttons to get the most reaction from us. Their goal is for us to lose control, because this makes the N feel superior, powerful, and in control of not only the situation, but us. The N might be a control freak, suppressing the expression of his/her emotions, thoughts, and feelings, thus getting his/her Target to react for the N, and the N can live vicariously through us thus feeling Normal.

Ns require all types of Puppets to Manipulate. Those who date or marry Ns are either the Goddess and their Soulmate, the Perfect Mirror or Puppet or their Targets become the Substitute Mother or Person they detest & hate, or the Person they can live vicariously through. We don't want to be in any of these roles, because we are only being a Puppet or an Object for the Puppet Master to manipulate and control at whim.

You really got to know the N you are dealing with and unfortunately when we are in the KoN we underestimate the N's potential to cause harm due to all of the thick FOG (Fear Obligation Guilt) and can not see or think clearly. Using the "rage back" as a test to "out" him as a Narcissist could lead to danger if you under estimate the magnitude of the N's pathology. People have done it over the phone over something that was relatively minor. As a test it worked well. As an ongoing strategy for managing N-rage I agree with others that it will fail. N's are like the Star Trek Borg, they adapt quickly to any strategy you might try.

The Borg is devoid of any human thought or emotion and their famous line,
Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated.

Also the covert N is very passive-aggressive. He acts as if he is doing something in your best interests, while he is really planning and executing your demise.

One of the great things about talking with others who have survived the N's KoN is that it brings tremendous clarity. No matter if the N in your life is a parent, sibling, spouse, friend, or loved one they all exhibit the same traits, they are masters of the illusion -- until it is broken, and their true wicked identity is exposed and we become Enemy #1. These evil N's are not only unwilling to love they are unable to love, because they lack a Conscience and perhaps a Soul! If they have a Soul it is Toxic.

My I recommend you adding the following articles to the top of your reading list:

Narcissism and Co-Narcissism by Gundren Zomerland MFT

Co-Narcissism: How We Accommodate to Narcissistic Parents by

and Alan Rappoport, Ph. D

Ns are notrious for throwing a big fit to keep people in line through bullying & intimidation thus maintain control over their Puppets/Objects.

Ns cannot tolerate being challenged on any level. They can't handle criticism well at all. In fact, nothing gets Narcissistic Injury to flare up quicker than a perceived criticism. Since they are hyper sensitive, co-works and Friends have to approach Ns very, very cautiously.

They have a code in his office, circulated via email. RED means leave it for another day. GREEN is GO - at your own risk though....ha! ~ Proud2B

Proud2B-- the Inability to Accept Healthy Criticism comes to mind when you speaking about your XN. My H had a supervisor who everyone in the office had the same red & green light codes in having to deal w/ her N personality & behavior

IlovemyHnD, I am so happy to hear that God has sent you a spiritual Mama. This is my prayer for all of us who have NVamps for Counterfeit Mothers. God's promise is that He will not abandon us like the Nparents and that he will make families out of the abandoned orphaned children -- notice he doesn't put an age limit on these abandoned orphans! (john 14:18 & James 1:26-27). Unfortunately w/N it is a game, but one that you can win w/integrity. With concerns w/your D and the exH and NVampMother -- do not tip your hand w/them. Do say to your X, I do not want my D to hang out w/NVampMother, instead when talking about your D always use the form "our" instead of "my" even when you don't feel that way, because it will have the EX more likely to be on your side. For example, say when speaking to EX, you know you were so right when you picked up years ago how my NVampMother was doing (a certain behavior). I didn't see it then, but I do see it now, Can I ask you your opinion about NvampMother (N love people to seek their opinion). Do you think her behavior is harmful to our D? (only do this if in the past EX & NVampMOther didn't get along, most likely they didn't, right?) Yeah, I think you are right about NVampM (N's love to hear their right, so keep reinforcing that EX was right about NVampM). she is just so toxic to be around our D. I know you want the best for our D and I now can sadly admit that NVampMother is not it. No matter what happens between us we can keep our D best interest at heart. If the Ex knows that it is his idea to not have your D be exposed to NVampM, then we will support your idea, otherwise you will have to people joining together against you. You must address your X as a team player in regards to your D and the NVampMother. If you ask him to do you a "favor", then when he is in his N mode he can take that "favor" away just to hurt you. Best to get him on your side.

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Is it characteristic of the N's to get even more mad when you WONT fight back with them? This had been my experience with Mine. She would always yell at me for walking away or chase me down and get in my face and so on....

-- Yes. Mine did until you consistently & constantly don't feed into their desperate move to start a fight and get NS from you. When you become that Consistent & Constant empty well for N's they will find a new source -- do you have siblings? You becoming an empty well for NS is going to cause the NVampM to go into withdraws and she is going to have tantrums and do what ever she can think of to draw you in for a fix & a fight, or a fight and a fix of NS. Remember, unless it putting your family into direct danger, do not react to NVampM attempts to draw you into chaos.

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This is when she she proceeded to tell him that I (me) crazy and he needed to think twice and do his homework before marrying me. He did all the right things and was very cordial with her...she didnt know how to handle it.

Only a NVampM would tell her D's boyfriend to leave her and that he could do better! The NvampM bio related to me did the same thing to all 3 of her children's significant others.

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This is one of the red flags I look for when meeting people now.
The one thing that comes to mind for me, because my XN was a master of this, is that no adult person should be engendering your pity. ~ Skater

This is a HUGE red flag as Skater has said.

Skater I have observed the same thing w/the Momster. She played the victim role very well. Let me say that there is a difference between being a victim and "playing" one. Her act fools most and would be award winning if Hollywood knew about her. Pity is what she is always after instead of sympathy because w/pity you must come to her rescue, do something for her where sympathy you have compassion & are cheering her on to work things out for herself and is something she extremely resented because she could not use it to her advantage. It always sent my mind spinning when she attacked me for giving her sympathy -- how does one person attack another for giving them sympathy and encouragement? Oh that's right, Ns are not human beings, they are

Ns are extreme beings, there is no middle ground with them. They either want you to be their Hero or they want to be your Hero and if they can not be your Hero they will be your Nemesis. If they can no longer have your Adoration they will have your Devastation. This is why they are the Counterfeit Prince, they come on strong as your Hero and leave as your personal devil. This also applies to the Nparents, hence the term Momster.
http://www.webofnarcissism.com/forums/index.php/topic,7242.25.html

Thanks to all the WoNderful Women who have and continue to contribute to this tread. Your shared wisdom is really solidifying things for me. The major lesson I have learned thus far in regards to the KoN is that we don't have to change how we love, just who we love, and we don't need to change who we are just who we are with.

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It's about trusting/assuming that both mates will protect and defend as real, true friends. It would never occur to me to be married any other way. And I believe I was this devoted to XNH throughout our marriage.

Authentic love is about respect, value, appreciation, friendship, devotion. And standing side by side. It can be very simple sometimes, very complicated at other times. But it endures EVERYTHING when the R is healthy.

The rest is fair-weather posturing, investment in anticipation of a return, or positioning to prey. ~NewWings4MeNow

NewWings, I love your version of Authentic Love, it is about being the best of friends to & with your partner. To me it is both Romantic and Practical -- I guess I am simple, old fashioned, outdated, and extremely happy. When I was younger I played a game called Dungeons and Dragons w/my friends. I don't know if kids play it anymore, they should. It is about have a great imagination, trusting your gut, and working w/others to accomplish goals. I never envisioned myself as a Princess trapped in a tower needing to be rescued by Prince Charming, but as Warrior Woman who stood back to back w/a brave Knight to slay the evil demons. Authentic Love must be founded on Equality.

NVampires can not tolerate Equality.
http://www.webofnarcissism.com/forums/index.php/topic,7242.25.html

What I don`t understand is why we always have to be the ones to back down from these idiots.~May

Being born into the KoN fighting is what we do best, it is a way of life and how we interacted w/one another, so there was never backing down because that was viewed by the Ns as a sign of weakness. However, everything we learn in the KoN is a lie. It takes a brave and wise person to walk away from a fight that is not worth getting into. Pick your battles in life and what I have found there is very little in life worth fighting over. If a N is raging they are not in the right mind for an intelligent conversation and the respectful exchange of ideas, so it becomes an utter waste of valuable energy and time to engage w/a N in general, but especially when s/he is raging or upset.

May, I believe your DH did the right choice. He loves you and wanted to protect you from a N attack and physical harm. Sure you could have pressed charges, and the N would have maybe been temp. locked up, but what good is in that? Consequences does not change an N and in fact fuels their revenge, so you wouldn't be teaching an N anything. Where Ns are concerned best to avoid them when ever possible and if they are threatening you or your family well then you have the right to protect yourselves from clear and present danger by any means necessary to keep you and yours safe.

Just wanted to Update this Thread! And if anyone knows anymore, please add them.

They believe in stereotypes and promote and encourage hatred towards others.

A HUGE Red Flag for me for identifying Ns is that they believe and perpetuate hurtful stereotypes and promote & encourage hatred towards others. The Momster was/is a Hate Monger hated anyone who was not just like her. She would say she was/is a feminist, but she is not she hates women who are not just like her. She targets and preys upon loving, kind and generous People Pleasers and instead of praising them for all their sacrifice, love and dedication they have done for her, and behind their backs she overtly puts them down, and to their face covertly and ambiently degrades & trash talks other people that her friends/prey identify with, so she indirectly hurts them by saying mean things about those things, ideals, beliefs, & people who are important to her friends.

Here is another example, Click Here.

Liberty you discovered another Great Red Flag! And thanks for sharing that WoNderful Example.

Compartmentalize in order to Divide and Conquer

They create animosity between various parties because they are afraid of the various parties meeting, comparing notes and discovering exactly what the Princes (and Kings, Queens & Princesses) of Darkness have been up to and what lies they have told. ~ Liberty

For those of us who were born and raised in the KoN this plays out through the different roles & duties we are assigned to carry out by the NKing (NF) and/or NQueen (NM). In each KoN there is an Evil Ruler, the N followed by the Golden Child which could be the Spouse or a Selected Child (in my DH's family the youngest child was the Golden Child and favored even over the Spouse (thus the extra martial relationship we had w/OW or OO 'other object"). Now I know why the youngest child was the favored Golden Child, because she was the youngest she was the Perfect Mirror or Perfect Puppet, she could reflect back to the N his false self, and in her eyes he was a Hero when in reality the other kids were discovering he was a Horror due to his Dictatorship and later discovered second Life with OO. After the Golden Child comes the other various Enablers based on the hierarchy of Favoritism Totem Pole with the Scapegoat aka Whipping Girl or Boy at the bottom. In the KoN I was born into the Momster's Golden Child was whoever was the best mirror and reflected back to her exactly what she thought and felt about everything and everyone. The Momster was/is a Hate Monger who hates everyone who is not just like her. She will tell anyone who will listen that she does know what happened to her 3 girls, they were so good, until they each reached the age of 16 and then they were horrible. Each one of them if though they are years about when they turned 16 they were just terrible to be around. To listen to her you would think that we were Troubled Teens or some sort of Thugs, but the truth is that all of us were Good Kids, did not get into drugs, did not sleep around, did not go out and party, always knew where we were and who we were hanging out with, all made the Honor Roll and both School Counselors and Teachers consistently said that we were one of their top students, yet to the Momster we Awful Kids.

The definition of a Nparent to be a Great Kid meant that we had to be a Great Mirror and reflect back only what the Momster wanted to see which was her False Self. We also had to be a Good Little Puppet and let the Momster control our every thought, feeling, and movement. We even had to be dressed in the clothes she picked out for us to wear. How dare us have any independent thoughts and feelings of our own. And whenever she felt like emotionally and physically abusing us we too Shut Up and Put Up. I am the eldest of 3 so actually before the age of 16 more like 12 I physically started fighting back the Momster, and when she was clearly wrong as when she was verbally and emotionally abusing my Siblings or myself I spoke up. My Siblings watched me Struggle for my Independence and cut the strings of the Puppet Master, and they started doing the same, I guess the biggest change according to the Momster happened around 16. Funny I can't remember any particular event that happened.

As the Three Little Puppets grew up we started to stand our ground with the Momster and the overt abuse decreased, but that did not stop the Momster she found more sinister and covert methods to torture what she would refer to as her Bad Little Puppets. She did not actually call us that, she used other words that she projected on to her puppets that made us feel Lesser-Than. Whomever was the Good Little Puppet escaped or at lessoned the abuse. I was hardly ever a Good Little Puppet. I was the Eldest and I wanted to protect the younger puppets, so I was usually the Scapegoat until the Scapegoat escaped off to College. Although all 3 Puppets grew up in the same house we never really had what people would call a close relationship and now I know why the Divide and Conquer technique which had a Life Long effect on each of us. Even though we became adults we never became close to one another, Time was spent together, but intimacy was not shared (I know now why because both Sibs are not only Damaged but they are also Disordered and lack empathy, thus no empathy no intimacy).

I think around 16 we all started going our own separate ways. Living in the KoN and being the Momster's Enemy #1 Target #1 was extremely stressful and I wanted to escape whenever I could, so that is when I spent most of my time w/my HS boyfriend and friends when I was allowed to escape. I couldn't wait to get to College and startmy Life, because up until then my Life was controlled by the Momster aka Evil Puppet Master. I mapped out my life, my major, my career goal and went for it. I only returned to the KoN when I had to and for Special Events like Birthdays & Holidays. I guess my Sibs and I had a Hallmark Relationship although I had no word of it at the time. We all lived separate lives and it took until we were in our 20's that we started comparing notes w/each other regarding the Momster.

It took us years to realize that the Momster doesn't just have a "different perception of reality", but that she is a pathological liar who lies about people and situations in order to cover up the hurtful things she does. The only way all 3 Puppets got on the same page was through our own personal series of D&D by the Momster. We realized that she lied about us, so it is no surprise that she lied about the other Sibs too. The lower level Nsis gets this what is going on w/the Momsters Divide and Conquer tech. because her own DH has pointed it out to her years ago and I confirmed what he observed. However, although the med level Nsis says she realizes that if the Momster can totally lie about her that she could also be doing the same about the other two, yet she still give the Momster the benefit of the doubt in that "it's the Momster's perception of reality". So even though med level Nsis says she gets it, she really doesn't, plus she is also a N so lying is not a natural expected thing for her, a part of life, like breathing, it just happens.

per LettingGo's request, reposting this here:

Let this become a red flag for you: When you are with someone who makes you feel as if you can't show your true feelings you are probably with a narcissist.

Normal people show and tell each other how they feel about things, whether you are talking about the latest snowfall or something as touchy as religion. If you are in a relationship where you are hesitant to express your feelings LISTEN to what that is telling you. Your heart is saying I AM NOT SAFE HERE. ~ Litha

These (Red Flags) remind me of when we go hiking and you have those post marks What are they called, that signal just how far you have traveled and those View Point that provides a new & different perspective the further we travel along our journey. All these is like creating a Road Map for others who come after us to follow. Thank you for this very important one. And thanks for all those who have contribute the other post marks. I know these are going to be a huge blessing to others.

Bite the bullet, and ask, the first time you're detecting unresolving tension: "Are we okay?", or "Did I do something wrong?"

If they say something like, "I'm sorry, I guess it's bothering me more than I wanted to admit to myself that you... but it was unfair of me not to come to you about it," or "I'm sorry, it's nothing to do with you, it's just I've got this and this going on, but you're right, I was being kind of rude...", then things might be okay, but more often having to ask this question at all is the beginning of the downhill slide, and a sign they refuse to deal with conflict early and in a proactive way.

If their answer in any way characterizes your whole person, RUN!!! A normal person, will be able to keep the focus on the single action, or repeated pattern of actions of yours they had a grievance with, without disparaging you, the human they still appreciate and value, and let you know an alternate way you might have acted that will help your friendship or relationship in the future, and be open to your approaching them in the same way.

IMO

Divide & Conqure through Isolation & Alienation

IF you have no friends or family support that is a HUGE Red Flag that you have been sacraficing everything you got at the thrown of a N!

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BINGO - AND BRILLIANT

This is huge and resonates to my soul. It's what my sister and (indirectly) what my 24 year old daughter and a few of my very close friends were trying to communicate to me by their frustration, pulling away, and even running away....my NH would tell me what "jerks" they were and would try to sabotoge my interactions and communications with covert and psychological confusion. My frame of reference became, everyone is evil and f'---ed up - they are abandoning me......I realize now, that my father died, my mother got alzheimer and went to a nursing home and he began to see my support system dry up and was getting ready for the kill.....trying to systematically alienate me from my sib's and beginning to try to triangulate me and my grown up kids...this happens slowly with precision and cunning premeditation. Thanks for putting this on the radar and thank god I'm thawing out from the ice and FOG. With Gratitude - Changed S

Totally- Letting Go -- you are just so right on with the way that this started to happen with me. I had been the most connected, social, networking, keeping great people around with whom I cherished, nurtured and had reciprocal energy and healthy give and take with. Like a cancer over the years, NH through his chaos, toxicity, gaslighting, triangulation, and the devastation of cleaning up NH financial and family betrayals....being spinned around and tipped off balance, buried in the land of NH "crazy making" focusing all my attention on damage control my healthy solid non-N non-Disordered began to head for the hills and run away.......all the while NH telling me they were horrible, and nuts and jerks...JEEZZZ.

Thanks for putting this on the radar -Changedspirit a/k/a Spiritchanged

SpiritChanged thank you for the great examples that you provided. It is a collaborative team effort to gather all of the Red Flags & supporting examples in order to avoid other KoNs as well as for other travelers who are trapped in the Fog and Gaslighting of the N. We need to make a path, so they no longer have to doubt themselves and can escape the KoN. Thank You for your great contribution. I hope others will continue to add to this thread as other Red Flags are discovered along with many great supporting examples.

LettingGo, this one occurred to me today

Narcissistic Injury
One of the first clues you will see that indicates you are dealing with a narcissist is the Narcissistic Injury. In the beginning this can be somewhat subtle, so it is worthwhile to hone your observation skills for this one.

Example: You go out to lunch with some coworkers and everyone is laughing and chatting and enjoying themselves. Suddenly one person notices a coworker wrinkling her nose at what they just said and feels offended.

What happens next?

a) NORMAL: the offended person asks something like, "why did you wrinkle your nose when I said that?" The nose-wrinkler responds, with some embarassment, that their allergies are acting up so their nose is itchy. Everyone laughs and nose-wrinkler apologizes for any misunderstanding. The offended person also apologizes for misreading the expression Happy times continue.

b) N-INJURY: the offended person gets quiet for a moment, then attacks nose-wrinkler, "what are you wrinkling your nose at me for, your contribution to the conversation isn't any better than mine." Talking and laughter cease for a moment, nervous glances are exchanged. Nose-wrinkler isn't sure how to respond, but tries to explain about the sinus allergy. The offended party snorts at the explanation and makes a devaluing comment about nose-wrinkler personally or about people with allergies in general. A few other coworkers laugh nervously, but the rest of the lunch is strained and unpleasant. When you all get back to the office, the offended person tries to pull some "rescuers" into a drama triangle and convince them to help her take revenge on nose-wrinkler.

Narcissistic Injury that is a great red flag Litha. Would you explain what a Narcissistic Injury is for those who may be unclear. Thank You.

For a good layman's description, read this page:

http://www.deconstructingjezebel.com/narcissistic-injury.html

Here is how Sam Varkin (I know, I know) describes the respoNse to iNjury:

The narcissist is constantly on the lookout for slights. He is hypervigilant. He perceives every disagreement as criticism and every critical remark as complete and humiliating rejection – nothing short of a threat. Gradually, his mind turns into a chaotic battlefield of paranoia and ideas of reference.

Most narcissists react defensively. They become conspicuously indignant, aggressive, and cold. They detach emotionally for fear of yet another (narcissistic) injury. They devalue the person who made the disparaging remark, the critical comment, the unflattering observation, the innocuous joke at the narcissist's expense. By holding the critic in contempt, by diminishing the stature of the discordant conversant – the narcissist minimises the impact of the disagreement or criticism on himself.

So when you begin to notice that your new friend/lover is hypersensitive to "slights" (real or perceived) and reacts defensively with "conspicuous indignance" raise the red flag. If you grew up in the KoN, as I did, you might not recognize this behavior as abnormal, but it is.

Great Example of the Narcisstic Injury Litha. Here is another link,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_rage_and_narcissistic_injury

To me a more actuate term would be called Pathological Injury. Pathological in that the Injury the N feels is a Counterfeit, Imaginary, it is out of Balance & Exaggerated and really doesn't exist hence the Paranoia aspect of it.

With the Momster, she became litterally Paranoid that her DDs were "out to get [her]" that "everyone is against [her]" because we encouraged her in very supportive ways to stop her Vamp life style of watching TV all night long and sleeping all day. This was not good for her physically, emotionally, psychologically, or socially. Both her mental, emotional, and psychological health deteriorated and her relationships suffered because of it. During the Day time when most People are awake and interacting and going places she could not keep up, and she did not want to do what others wanted to do, complain, complain, complain, devaluing People & Places, she is horrible to be around. She was miserable and she was going to make everyone else suffer along with her. Then she wouldplay the Victim that feel sorry for me because no one wants to be around me. Even when she came to visit us & stayed at our house she did not give up her Vamp schedule. She wanted to Sleep on the couch so she could watch TV all night and the volume would get so loud because poor thing "can't hear like she use to" and she would wake us up numerous times during the night w/the noise. She expected everyone to go along her schedule of doing things at night. When we had plans during the Day she wanted to join us, we encouraged her to get to bed on time so she wouldn't be tired the next day, and we got stuck having to encourage her like a Child to get up and get ready and to hurry up and get ready because we all agreed on a certain time we had to leave to get to where we wanted to go on time, but of course the Momster controlled everything and everyone and would make us late until we had firm boundaries and said we are leaving at (X) time with or without you, you are an Adult and it is up to you to be ready, then the Momster would say how inconsiderate we all were not waiting for her if we dare to leave on time or even 10 or 15 minutes past our scheduled time. That is Nism ALWAYS someone else's fault, they are the Victim and they suffer from Narcisstic or Pathological (Imaginary) Injuries from others. Seriously to hear her speak you would think we were terrible people to expect her to be thoughtful of others and want her to take care of herself by having a life other than only watching TV shows and Sleeping All day. When she told me that " you are all out to get me" for a second I thought she was joking, surely she couldn't be really Paranoid, and I questioned her, do you really feel we are out to get you? And her response was, yes I do I really do. WOW she really is Paranoid. To see her react you would think that there were some Serial Killers after her (wide eyed expressions & exaggerated behavior). Even after we explained countless times how taking better care of herself will benefit her personally (benefit to health, energy to do the things she always talked about wanting to do, hobbies, etc) as well as her relationships she still feels like we are attacking her & don't care about her. Stupid Momster!

Hey, I think you identified another red flag LG:

Narcissists love to make you wait for them, no matter how inconvenient it is for you.

OMG, this is so TRUE! Thank you for sharing that.

I remember Oprah Winfrey's personal trainer (forgot his name) shared a story about Oprah when they first started working together in the early 80s. He said Oprah always arrived too late. He got fed up with her behaviour and told her: "Next time you show up late, you find yourself another trainer. My time is as precious as yours." Oprah was never late again. I guess it shows that normal people DO listen and DO change their behaviour.

hi sweetcakes!

My exN was famous for being late. He and I were supposed to attend his cousin's wedding on a Friday night. I had to work that day so we decided to meet at the ceremony. I got there about 30 minutes early and began mingling with his relatives. They told me flat out not to expect exN to show up for the ceremony, that he was ALWAYS late, even to weddings. Sure enough, I sat alone through the entire ceremony. ExN showed up in time for the reception.

The narcissistic injury flag also showed up early in our relationship. I hired a professional organizer to help me plan the downsizing I needed if I were to move in with exN (he of course was talking marriage by the second date, another red flag). She had requested that he be involved in the discussion, but he was about 45 minutes late. When he got there he was very disruptive, she and I had developed a professional rapport and he was trying to get the attention back on himself. Finally she tried, delicately, to suggest that he was not adding value to the discussion and should perhaps not be involved. He got quiet after that but I could literally feel the rage emanating off of him (conspicuous indignance). He made me pay for that one for the remaining months of our relationship, even though I was not the one who said it.

God help me, I thought that was normal behavior because that is how my N-mother and sibliNgs behave. I believed that I did not behave that way because I was weak and socially dysfunctional. That's what I was taught.

Oh the joy of leaving that behind!

Litha & Sweetcakes -- Well done Warrior Women!
Narcissists love to make you wait for them, no matter how inconvenient it is for you. ~ Litha

I remember Oprah Winfrey's personal trainer (forgot his name) shared a story about Oprah when they first started working together in the early 80s. He said Oprah always arrived too late. He got fed up with her behaviour and told her: "Next time you show up late, you find yourself another trainer. My time is as precious as yours." Oprah was never late again. I guess it shows that normal people DO listen and DO change their behaviour. ~ Sweetheart

I saw that same show when it origninally aired in the 80's and thought to myself, Bob (I think that is Oprah's Trainer's name) really knows his value and how brave of him to let Oprah know that and as Sweetheart showed Oprah is a normal imperfect person who hurt someone, but when confronted allowed herself to be held responsible and accountable and those shows integrity on her part. Having Remorse, Authentic Remorse that causes True Change is key for True Forgiveness & a continued Relationship or Friendship.

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He got quiet after that but I could literally feel the rage emanating off of him (conspicuous indignance). He made me pay for that one for the remaining months of our relationship, even though I was not the one who said it. ~ Litha

Conspicous Indignance, I remember you have used that term before. I just wanted to say Litha you are one of my favorite writers. I love the way you express yourself. Such a talent with words.

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God help me, I thought that was normal behavior because that is how my N-mother and sibliNgs behave. I believed that I did not behave that way because I was weak and socially dysfunctional. That's what I was taught. ~ Litha

I completely understand and know what you are saying and have felt and endured in a family of Ns.

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Oh the joy of leaving that behind!

Isn't great how Life is so Awesome out of the KoN and in the LOL (Land of Love).
You know my prayer for you my Friend, is that you never return to that KoN of NFOO who devalues & hurts my Friend. Nobody needs to be intermittantly reminded of how they are not loved or valued by the NFOO. Litha you are so an Amazing Person and Amazing People have nothing to prove to anyone in the KoN Love ya Litha!

You know what I love about this thread is that we can all learn from sharing our own Red Flags and we can learn from fellow Warrior Women's Red Flags and that is an AMAZING GIFT we are giving one another, the opportunity to learn of each other's lives and Mistakes (missing or ignoring Red Flags) which are Learning Experiences & Opportunities.

Warrior Women are Smart & Wise.
We are Smart when we learn from our own mistakes AND we are Wise when we learn from the mistakes of others. Gathering Information & Knowledge is important, but is essential to Apply Knowledge in order to gain Wisdom & Protect Self from future harm.

I just LOVE how we have the opportunity to share our Wisdom with others. This is a great gift from God that only human beings can do for one another. It is our humanity and love for one another that sets us apart from Ns & Ps and any other lower life form.
Praise God! Thank you Jesus & Thank You Great & Holy Spirit!

Two More Very Important Red Flags.

The First Red Flag applies to How the N attributes our Successes & Failures. For more info on Attribution Bias, Click on the Link Below.
http://www.webofnarcissism.com/forums/index.php/topic,8297.msg37615.html#msg37615

When the N is in The N-chantment Phase of the Relationship, The N is the Counterfeit Prince Charming, his Object/Victim is his "Soulmate" who can do no Wrong (constant Compliments & Praises), the N's agenda is too trap his prey by wooing her. If he showed his True Self the first time we met him he would not have the power to N-chant because his constant devaluing would be adversive, repulsive and a Turn Off. We think he is Wonderful because his compliments make us feel Wonderful, and everything is Wonderful in the KoN up & until the the Victim stops being the Perfect Mirror

and does not constantly supply the N with Adoration (the N's drug of choice), then the Victim can do no Right (constant Condemnation & Put Downs, Devaluing). In the N-chantment Phase who I am (a Soulmate) and what I say & do is Wonderful, but in the Devaluing Phase who I am to the N (Lesser Than) and what I say & do is Terrible, the Victim is left wondering, What happened? What did I do wrong? Why the Sudden Change? And what do Ineed to do to get back to being the N's Soulmate?

The Second Red Flag has to deal with Toxic Teasing.

Name Calling is Never Nice. Huge Red Flag! I don't care if you had a red rose in your mouth when you called me an Idiot when I missed a turned, that word still stinks and that is a devaluing comment. It comes from a Person who has trouble with or lacks Empathy. Would that person want to be called an Idiot if he simply missed a turned. The World does not come to an end just because a person is less than perfect and makes a mistake. Yes, I know Toxic Teasing happens in certain Families and Relationships. Believe me I have done my research on Healthy and Toxic Relationships and I can tell you that those who engage in the Toxic Teasing do in fact suffer from extremely low self esteem and do not know their value nor do they fully value others. Toxic Teasing is considered to be covert or ambient abuse. No one likes to be called a derogatory name, no matter how they laugh it off on the outside on the inside they are thinking of ways to get back at the other person. The injured person looks for the opportunity to get his/her revenge by creating even more humiliation.
Awesome Healthy Relationships are absent of Toxic Teasing.

It happened again, this past weekend! We were at one of our Friends House celebrating their Child's 21st Birthday. Huge Big Family Celebration. It was very interesting to see the Natural Selection of where everyone chose to sit. In one room were the loud & very vociferous group, and in the other room The Normals, where no one faught to be the center of attention. After the delicious meal, and dessert, someone from the other room decided to put on a Family Video from 1995 where the Birthday Guy was celebrating a childhood birthday (about 5 or 7 years old). Everyone was having a great time seeing how they all looked 16 years ago. It was a Pinata scene and the kids were trying to break open the Pinata. Someone said, Oh fastforward to the Part w/(my Friend M's name). You know the one. And everyone in the room fills w/excitement and anticipation. The rest of us who haven't seen this Family Video are wondering, what is all the excitement about, what is going to happen next. The person controlling the video says okay here it comes. My Friend M was taking pictures of her Son and accidently droped the camera, she hands the camera to her husband who is videotaping the Pinata Scene. Her mood dramatically changes from Joy to Anniexty as she is deeply concerned about breaking the camera. With a very worried look & a gleam of hope, she asks her husband, looking directly into the camera, Is the camera okay? And he replies, NO you broke the camera, and she is instanteously filled w/sorrow, shame, and remorse which comes across so clearly on her facial expression. And the Family roared w/Laughter at M's saddness. Some of us were moved through our Empathy to Sympathize w/M and felt bad for her, while others just had a great laugh at her expense that night -- and that broke my heart. How is it People find it funny to see someone else, someone they profess to love, feel bad?

How does someone else feeling bad about him/herself bring entertainment & enjoyment to others? I looked immediately at my Friend M and she did not find the Situation Funny at all. She was once happy enjoying her Son's 21st Birthday Celebration and now she was hurting and her sadness was easy to detect for us Normals. Earlier that Night my Friend M was full of Life and excitement and now she is withdrawn into herself. The fact that her Family would want her to relive this painful experience that caused her great turmoil & embarrassment just to humilate her and have a laugh at her expense was definitely Toxic Teasing.

My Friend M is one of the kindest, thoughtful, caring, considerate, helpful, and loving People I know, definitely The Best of her Bunch, and it hurt me to see how they went to great lengths to humilate her and not one Person who knew what was coming up on the Video tried to stop it. Not her husband, not her Sons, not her Parents, or her Siblings, no one was moved to try and prevent M's humiliation & exploitation. It broke her heart to have her own Loved Ones treat her so Terrible. Her Self-Esteem & Self-Worth took a Major Hit. I know she was hurting, and her heart was breaking, but she did what Victims of Toxic Teasing do, she forced that little Social Smile and did not show others how deeply it bothered & hurt her. Nothing wounds a person deeper than a cut from her own Family.

Now you might think that M's Family were a bunch of mean heartless Ns, but they weren't they are actually pretty Nice People that unfortunately have accepted Toxic Teasing as an acceptable Family Pastime. Toxic Teasing is a Cancer that erodes the very Heart of a Family. I Hope that those who read this will consider putting an end to Toxic Teasing if it ever rears its ugly horned head.

Even some "Normal" People will deflect Responsiblity & Transfer Accountablity to your Child (and/or you) in order to Save Face & protect their own Egos. Last week I was at a Friend's House and my DD (who has a Sixth Sense about People & Animals) immediately did not trust my Friends Jackrussle Terrier. My Friend kept on assuring the both of us that the dog was just excited to see a Child and "is perfectly fine". My Friend had another little Dog and an old Golden Mix, these two dogs my DD had no problem with, but the Terrier my DD picked up a Bad Vibe from him. I also picked up a Strange Vibe about this dog & it made me feel uncomfortable and concern for my DD (that Gut was sending a Message that the Dog was danger), so I kept a very watchful eye. I should have insisted that the dog be kept outside or in a bedroom, but "there wasn't any apparent reason" so I said nothing and kept watching my DD to make sure she was safe. My Friend noticed my concern and kept trying to reassure me "that there was nothing to worry about and we can trust him".

Everytime my DD got up the Terrier would follow her in this very hyper excited way that made both of us feel uneasy, yet the dog did not growl or nip at her or act outwardly aggressive and my Friend kept on reassuring us that the Terrier is fine and "not doing anything wrong". I am in the Kitchen w/my Friend and she is teaching me how to make Pizza dough, we are setting the dough aside to let it rise and decided in the meantime we would all go for a walk. My DD calmly (and I want to stress that point) gets up and walks over to where her shoes are at by the front door and the Terrier rushes after her trying to nip at her legs and arms. She is completely Terrorized by this Terrier. Fear & panic set in, because although the Terrier is small to us, he is about half her size, and larger when he is leaping after her, trying to pounce on her and attack her. I immediately spring into action pick up my Daughter and use my foot to fend off the dog. Instead of apologizing for being wrong about her dog my Friend starts making excuse and blaming my DD for "getting the [Terrier] excited", "she must have have did something, because he has never done that before". Victim Blaming was something I would have never expected from this Friend. I politely, yet firmly stopped her right in her tracks with that and said, my DD was NOT doingAnything but getting her shoes, she wasn't doing anything to him, she wasn't evening looking at him, she was just getting her shoes, she was Not making the dog excited, he was mean for No Reason. My Friend immediately put the Terrier out back where he constantly clawed on the sliding glass door to be let back in. Right in front of my Friend I told my DD You were right Honey Not to Trust the Terrier and we were wrong for thinking he would be nice. We should have listened to You. You were right the Terrier wasn't nice like the other dogies, so he has to stay away from us (No Contact is Necessary w/N People & Pets who are a danger to others).

Now in this very same situation, if I was the Child and the Momster was in my position, the Momster would have agreed w/her Friend that some how I must have did something to set the Terrier off "because he has never done that before". The Momster would have not come to my defense, even though it was clear that the dog attacked for no reason. The Momster would have wanted to save her Friendship at my cost. The Momster would have gladly saracficed her own Daughter for her Friend.

This Friend of mine is usually a very Nice Person. She is not one of my Closest Friends, but we do spend time together -- however, her lack of accepting responsiblity or having Empathy for my DD is a HUGE RED FLAG. She is not someone who I can trust to be alone w/my DD as in watching her for us or have my DD's best interest at heart and I can not trust her perception of Reality when it comes to being Accountable and Responsible. My Friendship w/this particular Friend is Limited because her Empathy is Limited.

I guess my point is, as Loving & Protecting Mamas we need to make sure that others do not deflect theirResponsiblity and blame our Children for their N-issues. My Friend is not responsible for her Terrier's attack, but she is at fault for not putting the blame where it belongs, on the dog and Not my DD. She owed my DD an apology for constantly doubting my DD and making her feel bad about "worrying about nothing". When my Friend did not apologize that was Another HUGE RED FLAG)


When someone is clearly in the Wrong and they do not Apologize HUGE RED FLAG). As in the above example, there was no "I am sorry for doubting you", there was No Empathy "that most have been scary & terrifing & I am so sorry that happened", there was No Consequence/Punishement for the Attacker or addressing/identifing what he did was Wrong.

Hi.

This, briefly, is to Letting's victim blaming example:

Two weeks ago I was in a local San Diego coffee house waiting for a business colleague to arrive. He came, we ordered and sat down next to a table of women. While we were working a woman came barreling through the tables to join the others there, she knocked my purse off the back of my chair, it spilled over on the floor and all its contents came pouring out. I stopped my work, leaned down to pick them up. She did nothing.

What was the only thing the woman (my age-ish) said?

"Well that happened because you left your purse open. You shouldn't leave your purse open."

And I thought, "HOLY SHITH! So THAT's what it sounds like! That woman just blamed ME as her very first reaction!" And within seconds I knew an awful lot about her, and the women she sat with who all looked just like her in dress, hair, make-up, attitude .... (None of them told her to apologize, and she didn't do so.) I realized that it only takes a millisecond for a person's armor to go up and project/deflect if they just can't feel the vulnerability of being wrong and taking responsibility for fixing something if they are patently to blame.)~NewWings4MeNow

Update to this Thread, Here are some more Great Red Flags & Advice from Wise Women of WoN.
http://www.webofnarcissism.com/forums/index.php/topic,8642.0.html

It has been a long time since I dated a N, but here are some updates that I just recalled.

I need to update the above thread and I would Add the N saying, "you are just a Insecure Person" "You are being Paranoid" -- turns out the N was cheating w/OW or some other deceitful behavior. That falls under the Title of Gaslighing. In my 17 year Marriage never felt Paranoid or Insecure about my DH being around other women or doing something deceitful. I felt insecure that I wasn't Good Enough, but that was baggage from the Momster's KoN.

I would also update the list with adding:

If someone is Judgemental which shows lack of Empathy.

Hypocritical is a HUGE Red Flag for me, the do as I say not as I do thing. If the N is late in showing up, you of course are understanding, things happen, yet if you do the same thing you are being inconsiderate, etc. This goes w/things like cussing. The Momster could do it because "she lost her temper", yet if I did it how horrible of me. I forgot about that one since I hardly ever cuss unless you count me talking about the Momster's or NFOO or any other N's cr@p.

Metamorphosing You or Himself. Starts off very gradual, subtle, and covert. His favorite color is Grey, you don't like it, but he loves it on you and it turns him on so you find ourself wearing more Grey. Then he likes your nails to be Natural Unpolished or Polished and treats you to getting a mani and pedi, then it is your hair style, try growing it longer, cutting it shorter and shorter or growing it longer and longer, how about wearing jewlery, purhases gifts for you, or prefers that you have no jewlery that gets in the way of him lovin on ya, let's go try some shooting next thing you know you have a copy of the NRA Magzine on your coffee table, taking camping trips, fishing trips or hunting trips or to the other extreme joining a Protest to Save the Snails (my Friend RB will love that!). Those who know me, know one weekend I can be found protesting against Partial Birth/Late-Term Abortion and the next weekend trying to save the Sea Life from an oil spill, or protesting the cruelty to Animals and not chopping down the Big Pine Trees. The point is you wake up one Morning and you look in the Mirror and don't recogninze the Woman who is looking back at ya. Who is she? Where did I go and your Close Friends and Family have been wondering the same thing, but didn't want to say anything because you seemed so very happy in your New Relationship. I have been there and done that. I have friends who are Athesist and Pastors, Liberals and Conservatives on Politics, Religion, Sexual Orientation and my Long Term Friends even though they don't understand how I can relate "to the other side" they have accepted that I am a Lover not a Fighter -- unless a N or P threatens someone I Love. I have dated the Guy in the Rock Band and the Guy in the Choir and both tried to change me into somone who I was not.

Again I want to encourage everyone to add their Red Flags and I would include Deal Breakers as to this List.

I agree that mirroring back to high level Ns, espeically those to are physically violent is very dangerous and I would not recommend it either. That is a Red Flag!

Fear of Mirroring back to the N.
If you can not hold the N accountable, or mirror back to the N what s/he has done or said to you due to fear of the N escualting and assulting you then that is proof that person is either N or P and you need to escape when it is Safe.

Problem is with lower level Ns, when we are N-chanted by them, when we are Projecting our Humanity and thinking they are Normal, mirroring back is necessary to get that slap in the face to wake us up. I know that sounds Harsh, but when we keep compromising our boundaries by settling for behavior we said we would never put up with, lying, cheating, verbal & emotional abuse, I know this is sounds harsh, but sometimes we need that slap in the face to break the N-chantment Spell. Unfortunately by then, the N has devalued his Victim so much that even a physical assult will not get her to leave and he follows up w/Victim Blaming so she believes some how she deserved the slap. This is why it is important to know our Deal Breakers and not compromise. And also set our Ego aside and if we have a pattern of being in more than one Toxic Relationship we need to get our butt into Therapy and heal those deep soul wounds that create such a void in us that we would settle for Toxic & Dangerous People. We need to know we have Value and are worth building and maintaining our Boundaries, so when our Boundaries are assulted through Projection those lies bounce off instead of Breaking the Boundaries down.


Here is one of the Greatest Gifts I received along my Healing Journey and I would like to Share It Forward Here.

A HUGE RED FLAG is when someone calls you Judgmental, etc. when you are having Discernment between Healthy and Toxic Behavior. If they say you are Unforgiving, when they have had a lack of Empathy & Remorse. When they expect you to just Forgive & Forget when they have had no Insight, Empathy, Capassion, Remorse, and don't want to be held accountable because they don't want to change, and if we require them to change we are being (fill in the blank), Judgmental, Unforgiving, Unrealistic Standards, Uncaring, Selfish, Too High of Expectations, Too Sensitive, etc.

Here is a quote from a New & Very Talented Blogger. Cheshire writes,

I have learned two very important things when it comes to discerning safe people.

1) Do they have genuine empathy for you? Check this out further by watching them carefully for when they do appear to express genuine empathy. You will notice that it is usually for themselves and not for you or someone else. Somehow, the situation involves them to a point where they can feel sad. If it does not involve them, chances are they will not be genuinely concerned. They don't have the ability to empathize. However, they have probably learned how to "ACT" concerned. The narcissists grandiose sense of self makes them excellent actors, able to "feign" emotions that they don't really feel.

2) Do they treat people in their lives as "equals?" A narcissist never really does this. Only if you have something that they want will they even bother with you. If you do have something they want, they will indeed bother with you, even to the point of being your biggest supporter as long as you continue to provide them with part of the limelight, your finances, your social status, your servitude or something else. Better yet, they can prove their superiority to you...eventually.

My biggest test now is to say "no" to them and then sit back and watch how they respond. A narcissist will impose their will on you with all kinds of aggressive and covert tactics. If they can't, they will begin their campaign to make you doubt yourself, to smear you, to basically destroy you.

Cheshire's blog link, click here.

I also highly value Mulderfan's addition "just ask them for a favor". Very True. Thank You so much Mulderfan for this confirmation.

Just ask them for a Favor, especially when it is not convenient for them, and they will have to sacrifice something (rearrange their schedule, etc). By refusing us, not being there when we need them, the message they send is that, We are not a priority in their Life, we are not worth it to be inconvenienced even in the smallest of ways.

When my Damaged & Delusional Sister abandoned me in my hour of need when my DH was in the hospital w/an Emergency, she asked me "Do you really needed me there to be with you?". She expected me to say No. But I said yes, and then she preceded to tell me that my faith should be stronger to justify why she wasn't going to show up when she lived only 30 minutes away & we were in a County Hospital, so she had PLENTY of time to show up before DH was finally discharged.

There was one another Emergency Situation that happened about 60-80 days after my DH was in the hospital (this is the only second time in my entire life that I asked her to do anything for me & my DH & I have always been there to support her even for little things in life). My DH called my Damaged & Delusional Sis to say that I needed her, she refused to listen to him, requested (covertly demanded) to speak to me which I was really in no condition to speak to her. I told her again that I needed her, and again she denies my Reality & attacks my Faith. Recently she decided that she is going to have a Relationship w/the Demon Dad (which she has not had contact w/him for over 20 yrs), again attacks my Faith w/her covert bullying tactics & harassment on I need to Forgive the Demon Dad (although he continues to deny his crimes). I tell her on the topic of the Demon Dad changing we will have to agree to disagree and that I want NO CONTACT of ANY kind w/the Demon Dad. My Damaged Sister's DH gave the Demon Dad my DH's cell phone number last week. What about NC do they not understand? The simplest of favor was completely ignored.

May the Lord bless you were ever you are at on your Life Journey.

There comes a time in our Healing Journey to Move On from the Pain of the Past. Moving On is a Process too that begins with little steps or small movements from a Crawl to a Walk to a Run. We will all reach this point in our own time in our own way. For me it is about having a Future that is Larger, Greater, and more Powerful than the Past. It is about having a Vision, a Mission, and a Dream much Much MUCH Bigger than myself. Here is my Small Movement focusing on Restoring Hope by Giving Dreams Wings,

 Click Here.

If this chapter in my Life has made a positive impact or the Story of Self-Care is like Riding a Bike has blessed you, or any other chapters in the Journey of Letting Go has made a positive difference and you would like to also Share It Forward and Help bring Hope any donation will help to change one Life at a time. No donation is too small, and every bit helps. And the Lord will say to us, Thank You for giving me Hope and we will say to Him, Lord when were you without Hope? And the Lord will say when you restored hope by Giving Dreams Wings what you did for them, you did for Me. Thank You & GOD bless your Compassionate Heart, Generous Soul, and Loving Spirit.

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