Tyler Perri & Forgiveness

Tyler Perri's interview w/Oprah left me with many mixed emotions. I really feel for Tyler Perri for all he endured and survived and is only beginning to heal from now that he no longer feels that he must remain quiet. As a child who was abused I understand how he said he died that day his evil sperm donor beat him to the point of blacking out and dissociating. I applaud him for having the courage to come forward and tell about the nightmare he survived and by doing so he removes the shame and places it where it rightfully belongs on the Monsters who hurt him. It is not Tyler's shame, but the Monsters to own & carry. Unfortunately Tyler is holding on to shame that does not belong to him. He has started his healing process & has made great progress, but there are things he is blocking which in time he may be ready to address someday. The complete truth of what he endured & those who are responsible for Failing to Protect is a very hard thing to accept. It is a lot easier to make excuses, then to accept that people made wrong choices that brought abuse to his life. Tyler's personal goal is to dig deeper, so that he can discover the feelings he has been suppressing regarding those who should have loved & protected him from evil and not be evil to him. I appreciate that Tyler was so very open & honest about the abuse he endured and how he struggled with the effects of the different types of abuse. I know that was not easy to do no matter how rich & famous you are. Tyler is an inspiration for others, especially Men, to come forward and share the horrible nightmares they endured. I am glad that Tyler & Oprah are going to do a follow-up program w/men coming forward to talk about the abuse they survived.

Since Tyler was unable to address how both his parents failed him as a child I will. What I noticed in Tyler's interview w/Oprah was a lack of anger towards his parents for not creating a safe & loving home for him. I believe Tyler needs to stop suppressing & start publicly addressing & expressing the anger towards both his parents. There may be private moments when he begins to get in touch w/his anger and then I think he becomes fearful of it, so instead of acknowledging it, giving it a voice & letting it out to full expression he puts a cap on it. I pray someday he will feel safe to fully let it out, to get it out, so it will no longer fester inside. He needs to fully Champion the Child that was lost instead of denying him a voice. He was forced to cover up, hide, & deny the sins of his parents and he is still doing that today. He continues to carry their shame, so that they don't have to. As a child he felt responsible for his Mother and as a grown adult he still feels responsible for her in that he could not even tell what happened to him until his Mother passed away. He said that he could not bare to be the source of her pain. He does not get it that it is the evil psycho dad who caused & is responsible for all the pain that Tyler & his Mom endured. Tyler was not only shielding his mom from the pain of revealing the truth about the abuse, but also the shame of Failing to Protect her child. I wish the both of them would have come forward years ago to share what they survived and that she would have had the courage to admit that she failed her Son. It would have been so healing for the both of them, not to mention us viewers, who could have witnessed the process of a parent validating a child's abuse & pain by accepting responsibility, being accountable, having remorse, asking for forgiveness and Tyler giving her Authentic Forgiveness. What if she went on to live 10 or 20 more years would Tyler have kept all that bottled up inside just to protect her from exposing a painful & hideous truth about his childhood? He is hyper-focused on his Mom & preoccupied w/her feelings instead of healing the child within by giving that young child a voice to express his anger toward a parent that Failed to Protect him. His Mom either directly or indirectly gave Tyler the message that she could not handle the public knowing about the abuse. Putting his needs aside for his Mom's public image is a form of abuse.

I know first hand about this guilt to keep quiet. For years my grandmother picked up on the disconnect between her, my Aunt and my family and knew that something was wrong. She kept asking, Is there anything wrong? And of course I would reply, nothing is wrong. During the last visit to my grandmother's I was avoiding going to my Aunt's house because I did not want to be around her husband, the man who repeatedly hurt me when I was a child. The Momster called me at my hotel room and told me, "You are not going to cause trouble & cause a scene?" She was afraid that I was going to expose the Truth about her BIL. She further stated, "I didn't spend all that money to travel here, just so that you could cause a problem." I was told by the Momster that her mother, my grandmother, due to her poor health would literally die if she found out how my Aunt's husband hurt me. I believed this lie for years, until I heard the soft gentle voice of the Holy Spirit say, that is a lie, your grandmother has endured a War, the death of one of her children, the boat trip to America, she can handle the truth. It will hurt her, but it will not kill her. She was able to hear the Truth & she is still alive years later. I understand that the lie appears so strong that you actually believe someone can die from the Truth being told. Shame on both Tyler's Mom and the Momster for forcing their children to remain quiet about the abuse we endured. How terrible of Tyler's Mom for making her son bare this pain alone. She should have encouraged her child to come forward years ago and stand with him and show remorse for having Failed to Protect her Son.

Instead she made him feel like he had to keep the secret. Again her primary concern was not for her child, but for herself, and making her child feel that it is his responsibility to protect her. This is a great example of the misplaced Child who is parenting their own Parent, when the Parent is the Child and the Child is the Parent. Shame on his Mother for allowing this to continue into his adulthood and never once putting her own feelings aside for her child's. Even as a grown Man he feels responsible for protecting her, yet she did not feel responsible for protecting him when he was a helpless child, nor to support him as an adult while he exposed the horrible abuse. Sure she was a victim too, I get that, but does that forever exonerate her responsibility to protect her child?

His mother had no problem running to her Sister's for help, knowing that her Sister owned a gun and would use it. His Mom removed Tyler from the Demon dad's house and then she moved him back knowing that he will continually be abused over & over again (even Oprah's non-verbal expressions showed she had a problem with that). I don't believe it is healthy for Tyler to make excuse after excuse for his Mother's horrible choice of enabling the abuse to continue. What if Tyler's Aunt would have shot the Monster to protect her Nephew? I believe that is what Tyler's Mom was expecting her to do, for someone else to take responsibility so she wouldn't have to make the hard choice. Enablers, like Tyler's Mom who allowed the abuse to go on for years are nothing more than Secondary Abusers. When there is a Monster of this magnitude a Mother must protect her child, because her child was clearly not safe by staying.
http://dealingwithtoxicpeople.blogspot.com/2010/03/enablers-are-secondary-abusers.html

Eventually there must come a time when you risk your own life to save your child's. Her life and the life of her child's was in danger regardless if she chose to stay or leave. Staying did not keep her or her child safe. In my book she is clearly guilty of Failure to Protect. By law a Mother is allowed to protect her child by any means possible when there is Clear and Present danger as w/Tyler's dad. If she shot him herself, it would be out of protecting herself and her child from extreme harm. It would have been a clear case of Self-Protection. She had options available to her, more than other woman in her same situation. She had a Sister who supported & protected her & her child. Society just wants to paint her as a victim, because to admit that she had options & she Failed to Protect her child from a Monster is too painful to admit, we would rather just view her as a helpless victim rather than to accept the alternative that her Enabling was a form of severe child abuse.

Sure she was a victim, but she was also a Secondary Abuser to her child & for that as a Mother myself I have no empathy for her sacrificing her child to a Monster. There is a very ugly secret about abusive "families" that was not addressed on the show which is that victims find relief when other victims in the family are being abused. Many feel a tremendous amount of guilt for feeling relieved that they are not being abused and someone else is & others suppress or deny the guilt and somehow try to justify why their loved one is getting beaten instead of them. That is some small way the other victim is partly to blame for "triggering or causing" the abuse they are suffering. I believe this played a huge part w/Tyler's Mom. To even imagine His Mom feeling relieved that her Son is being abused instead of her is a truth too painful for Tyler to admit to himself let alone Oprah or the public. Sons in abusive families often take on the rescuer role for their Mothers and will sacrifice themselves in order to protect their Moms from harm. They will often "trigger" a beating so that the Monster will attack them instead of their Mom. I fully understand this because I did this w/my Sibs, I tried to take their beatings both physically and verbally so they didn't have to endure the abuse from the Momster. You don't automatically grow out of this role and even though the threat is gone the one-way relationship remains of always placing other person's needs & wants ahead of your own. Tyler lost his role of child in order to protect his Mom and I lost mine in order to protect my Sibs.

Now for the Monster, other wise known as Tyler's Demon Dad, I hate what he did to Tyler & his Mom. The Monster's comment that if he had beaten Tyler even harder he would have become President may be too horrible for some to believe that this jerk actually meant what he said, but he did. I know he truly meant it because the Momster has said some equally evil things that others have a hard time believing until the Momster herself said, "I truly feel this way. I really do." His lack of empathy and remorse & continued abuse sickens me. And what breaks my heart is Tyler's disconnect to the reality of the Demon Dad. Forgiving the Monster so that Tyler does not carry the anger inside of him and allow that to contaminate his life & relationships, I SOOOO get that. I really do. By not killing this Monster, Tyler is showing great self-control, Forgiveness, Mercy & Grace. However, by supporting this Monster in luxury sends the wrong message to other monsters, victims of child abuse, victims of all kind of abuse, and the public. Tyler is perpetuating two kinds of lies; (#1) That Child Abuse is not serious or devastating because Tyler has done very well himself, so well that he is actually supporting his abuser. Would he support the Monsters that sexually abused him? Why not? They are no different than his demon dad. Lie (#2) That this Forgiveness (supporting the Monster in luxury) is some kind of highly evolved state of healing or Super Christian power of Loving Thy Enemy. What about the requirement of Remorse, Repentance, not to mention Restitution?

Friends of mine a WoN, recently recommended, Janis Spring's book, How Can I Forgive You? The Courage to Forgive, the Freedom Not to, I wish I could send a copy to Tyler. I really like the following words from Janis,"Morally & Spiritually, you're no more required to forgive an unrepentant offender than you are to love him. You're free to reserve forgiveness for someone who has the fortitude to admit his culpability and the decency to help release you from the pain he has made you suffer. I would go as far as to say that you don't restore your humanity when you forgive an unapologetic offender; he restores his humanity when he works to earn your forgiveness."

I believe when we give Cheap Forgiveness to an unrepentant offender we rob/deny him/her the chance to restore his/her humanity, so no wonder they continue to hurt others. Each time Cheap Forgiveness is given more and more of their humanity disappears or dies. Cheap Forgiveness does not make the offender a better person, it makes them Worse. It INCREASES their level of pathology (as demonstrated w/the Monster's statement to Tyler that if only he would have beaten him more Tyler would have become President ) . Cheap Forgiveness is one reason why Ns get worse not better w/time. They drop their mask because why do they need to invest the time & energy to keep it on when people are just going to automatically forgive the unrepentant offender for hurting them.

Any time a person would require the Momster to accept responsibility for her abusive behavior and be accountable, have remorse & change/repentance she would say, "I wish people would just accept me for who I am." I believe it is her way of saying, Look I am a N or P who has lost her humanity I do not want to restore it because I like being a N or P, it works for me, so just accept me for who I am, a Narcissist or Psycho. In other words, put up and shut up. The Momster's ex-life-long friends (one who knew the Momster back in College) said "Your Mom was always different, had trouble getting along w/others, but over the years she has become someone I don't even recognize". The Momster D&D this ex-life-long friend just because she would not agree w/the Momster that it was my Aunt's fault for ruining their relationship. That is the Momster always trying to blame others for what she has done. The Momster also destroyed her relationship w/her life-long friend because her friend refused to accept the Momster's excuses for hurting her. This time the Momster's friend did not give her Cheap Forgiveness, like she had done so many times in the past, so the Momster ended the relationship by hanging up on the friend & never again making contact. The Momster would rather throw away a life-long friendship (over 40 years) than to accept any responsibility for her abusive behavior.

For me Forgiveness & Acceptance was something I had to redefine to find,
http://www.webofnarcissism.com/forums/index.php/topic,7271.0.html

As well as finding Closure to the KoN,
http://www.webofnarcissism.com/forums/index.php/topic,7306.0.html

Although I am NC w/the Momster, I ordered Janis Spring's book, How Can I Forgive You? The Courage to Forgive, the Freedom Not to, because it will be a great resource for other relationships.

Tyler's father was and still is an evil man being and Scripture tells us to rebuke evil, have nothing to do with it, so do not house it in a mansion, empower it, validate it and treat it like a god. Tyler does not have to desperately try to prove he is better than the Demon Dad, Tyler is very good and his sperm donor is very bad & evil, we get that, Tyler has nothing to prove to us and has nothing to prove to himself, or even God. Jesus knows that Tyler is a very good Man and that the Demon Dad is a very evil man. Who is Tyler trying to convince that he is better person than the Monster? The Monster continues to devalue him and in the Monster's mind Tyler will always be Less-Than that is why the Monster can justify his abuse towards Tyler. Surely Tyler could find a much better use for his money such as changing the Laws of our Land so that Child Abuse would have NO Statue of Limitation, like murder, because like Tyler said, the Monster killed that innocent child w/in him that day. There should be NO Statue of Limitation for a Slaughtered Soul. He needs to kick that Monster out of the Mansion.
I know we are taught to Honor our Mother & Father, so how do we fulfill this commandment when our parents are evil? The spirit in which that law was written was a Holy Sprit and it pertains to imperfect Parents, not evil parents. Children of Evil Parents are exempt from traditionally honoring evil parents. A Holy Spirit would not tell us to honor an evil one. We can honor evil parents in different ways. Here are some suggestions,
http://dealingwithtoxicpeople.blogspot.com/2010/02/honoring-abusive-evil-toxic-reprobate.html

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Forgiveness is one thing but inviting a child molester back into your life and supporting them is another. ~ May

Well said May! I of course completely agree. I must admit that many Christians mess up the concept of Forgiveness for themselves as well as for others. I have searched and searched Scripture and I have not found it ever written that we are to forgive unrepentant people. Repentantance is a requirement for Forgiveness, it is a requirement for Salvation. Even mere words are not enough, the person's heart must be right. Their heart must feel authentic remorse & pain for what they have done to the other person. We can lie & deceive others through Counterfeit Remorse & Repentance, but we can not deceive God, for He can see into our very soul if we are truthful or not. It is not my intent to have a Bible Study, just to point out that at least where America is concerned it is One Nation Founded Under God. These precepts, principles & concepts of Forgiveness are Biblically based and when Christians claim that they are following what God commands & teaches in the Bible well, we have got to check out the reference & investigate what it states. The following is just a few examples. There are many more. For those who want to do a more extensive research, you could use,

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/

and type in the word/s repent/ance

Peter shows that a person must have true repentance in his heart and not just in his words. This is his response to a Man who tried to buy God's favor & the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 8:20-23 (New International Version)
20 Peter answered: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! 21 You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. 22 Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. 23 For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin."

Our words alone are not enough, our behavior/actions, and our thoughts/intent must also be Authentic & Honorable. And as we know, Ns & Ps are pathological liars and will tell you any lie you are willing to believe. We must require that their behavior lines up w/their words. Actions speak louder than words and are more truthful, which is not to say that people can not pretend to be good and deceive others, they can, but the truth eventually comes out & exposes them for the Counterfeit they really are. We can not automatically accept that they have changed just because they said they did, we must look for the consistent proof of that.

Luke 24:46-48 (New International Version)
46 He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things.

Luke 17:3 (New International Version)
3 So watch yourselves.
"If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.

In Acts, Peter, a disciple of Christ tells the people,
38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."

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Letting, I agree with what you said. I was watching Joyce Meyer the other night talk about her father. She said that God told her to move her parents up to were she is but she was. She also supported her abusive father financially. She said that after a few years of supporting her parents, her father was in tears repented and asked for her forgiveness. She said that he had changed.~May

I have heard Joyce Meyer's speak on different topics and there are many things I am in agreement with her when what she has said is confirmed by Scripture. However, Forgiveness w/out the requirement of Repentance is putting the Cart before the Horse, it just doesn't work that way and it is not found in Scripture.

Repentance is putting true remorse into action. So how do we know if someone has truly repentant & changed?
http://dealingwithtoxicpeople.blogspot.com/2009/09/are-they-good-or-bad.html

When people tell me that God told them to forgive their abuser w/out the requirement of repentance I wonder why would God tell you one thing and tell the rest of us (the entire World) something else? He is no respecter of person. He does not play favorites. The world values status, credentials & fame, God does not. We are all equal under the Cross. I view one's personal relationship w/God very sacred and as long as what s/he says God told him/her to do lines up with the Holy Handbook, then I do not pass judgement. What God tells a person to do w/his or her ownlife is between that person and God, until they encourage, direct, imply or state directly or indirectly that others are to be like them & do like them. We are to be like Christ, not like Secular or even non-secular, Christian Celebrates. I must say that I question their ability to discern their own desires from Christ's, because God is faithful to His Word, so He would not instruct the entire World to require Repentance, but a select few are to offer Cheap Forgiveness by not requiring remorse & repentance.

Most child molester's re-offend when they see an opportunity. The others who have not re-offended have not changed, they just haven't been caught yet, or haven't figured out a way to get away w/their next crime. Their desire to cause harm to children never goes away. The Demon Dad who hurt my Nsis, years later after he claimed "God changed me," he remarried, became an active church member, a teacher at a local school, pillar of the community, he adopted a baby w/his new wife and a few years later was caught by his wife hurting their little D. I have seen these Monsters up close, one even hurt me, so I know they are not sorry for what they have done only that they have been caught and will be punished for their evil. The tears of remorse is just an elaborate illusion and a counterfeit powered by the public's own projected & transferred emotions. We think they have regret, because any normal person would, but they are not normal, they are evil in the disguise of human beings.

Going into Private Practice. . . . What do you think? (Part. 1)

Warning: If you have not watched last night's episode of Private Practice do NOT read this article. If you haven't seen this episode, I highly recommend it. I think it can open the door to some great discussion about the Narcissistic Continuum. Here is a link for the episode,

http://abc.go.com/watch/private-practice/SH559070/VD5591618/a-better-place-to-be

Great writing, like great art, has the ability to elicit strong emotions and last night's episode definitely did that for me. Second Warning, do NOT watch this episode right before you got to bed! It took me quite while to get to sleep last night. All 3 story lines were very provocative & thought producing.

My personal alternative titles to last night's episode would be called either,

The Good Doctor or Healthy Narcissism.

Which doc was the Good Doctor/Friend and which was the Narcissist?

What do you think?

When my choice benefits myself, yet is a detriment to someone else is that healthy?

What if that someone else is not a stranger, but someone very close to you?

Or the child of someone who is very close to you like Betsy?

Is abuse only when we do or say something harmful?

When we neglect to do the right & honorable thing is that abuse?

This is what other viewers are saying,

http://abc.go.com/shows/private-practice/episode-guide

*If you haven't been following this series it might be hard to fully grasp the impact of the decisions these characters each made.

The Back Story definitely would help. The Deceased Daddy Del was a character who made mistakes in his youth (addicted to drugs, turned his girlfriend, Betsy's deceased Mom onto drugs) and has worked hard to redeem himself. In fact he sacrificed his own life taking care of Sam & Naomi's pregnant D after the two of them were hit by a drunk driver while Del was driving the pregnant teen to the hospital. They could have lost both their D & grand D if it was not for Del. I am hoping that when Naomi returns she will redeem this story line or that Violet's conscious will get the best of her and she will change her mind. What I found disturbing was Violet's intentions, by doing right by Betsy was somehow going to make up for not bonding w/her new born child. Violet was going to do the right thing for the wrong reason. It was always hard for me to come up w/an example of doing The Right Thing For The Wrong Reason, now I have a perfect example. I would like to think that there is more to Violet then just being motivated to do right for Betsy for her son's sake. I think she really connected w/Betsy and who better to take care of a child who lost both her parents, Mom was a drug addicted, Aunt recently gave her to Del's friends, then a Foster Mom who is also a psychologist?

The extent to just how bad they failed her would come from knowing the back story. Many viewers, from some of the reviews I read are saying they are going to stop watching. I hope not. I personally love a story about redemption. so I am tuning in next week and hoping for the best.

The only person who did the honorable thing was Aunt Monica. She realized her limitations and she did what was right by her Niece Betsy by searching for Del's friends (per his instructions) who were described & identified close as Family Members. These Good Doctors were suppose to be a Family of Friends to a person who laid down his very life for his Friends and one of their children. Violet's closing comments of "We did a bad thing. We did a very bad thing. Shame on us." -- or something like that (oh here it is, "“We did a bad thing. You all know it. We did a bad thing.”) further demonstrates that Narcissists are fully aware what they do is wrong -- they simply just don't care because they lack loyalty and honor. I don't believe the Good Doctors are Super-sized Ns like the Momster, but they definitely fall on the Narcissistic Continuum.

Here is the song as Violet was rejecting/betraying Betsy. It is appropriately titled Shame.

You Again! Best Friendemies?

I am very interested in the dynamics of interpersonal relationships and lately I have been reading about people who are writing about Different Types of Friends/Friendships. As I am doing my homework or research on Friends I am discovering that people are also writing about Friendenmies (friends who are really your enemy). not sure about the correct spelling of the word. I have seen it spelled a couple of different ways.
http://www.ehow.com/how_2226839_spot-a-frenemy.html

In the thread Must See Movies & TV,
http://www.webofnarcissism.com/forums/index.php/topic,7687.0.html
examples of Authentic Love are provided and NewWings mentioned one of my favorites, Fried Green Tomatoes. I believe that CZ has the Spirit of of Towanda!
http://www.webofnarcissism.com/forums/index.php/topic,7312.msg25901.html#msg25901
What really bothered me is what some of the critics said about this movie. Basically that woman are incapable of this deep level of love for one another unless they are sexually attracted to each other. I do not believe this to be true. Sure our culture plays into women's insecurities and competitiveness, but many of us do not buy into this. I believe there are many women here at WoN who would make great friends. There is a new movie, You Again about what is popularly called Best Friendemies. It is disheartening to me that having or being a Frienemy is becoming so popular, especially among young girls. It is that Toxic Triangle that some girls find themselves in where they compete among themselves to be the Golden Friend of the Popular Girl in the group which results in the Less-Than or Less Preferred Friend and Least Preferred Friend Statuses. Even very young Pre-K girls do this. Two of them can play well together, but bring in a third or fourth and if there is a Mean Girl in the bunch, she takes this opportunity to exclude her targeted Scapegoat. I hate when this happens and what bothers me even more is that some teachers and parents view it as "a child's right to choose who she wants to play with and who she does not." I believe we have the right to choose who we want to be friends with and who we do not, but this exclusion is not about choice it is about the power to hurt others which is mean, hideous and wicked. Some argue that the Mean Girl has a Fear of Rejection so she is doing to others what she fears will be done to her, or maybe what has been done to her. Some people believe that the way to treat Mean Kids is to love them into kindness and they purposely place their own children in the line of fire. This is not my approach. My D and I talk about how a certain child is being mean today, how we don't have to play with him/her or any mean person, until they can be kind. Maybe tomorrow Little Sam or Sally will be kind to others, but today, s/he chooses to be mean so we will play w/our friends who are kind. Children who don't want to be mean, eventually stop when they receive this consistent consequence, however, there are some who just pick another group of kids to manipulate until the entire class no longer wants to play with them. My D has told me a certain child is mean everyday so I don't want to play with her anymore and I tell her that is a very good choice.

Some girls really enjoy being Mean Girls and the Movie that glorified this behavior has some people viewing this Nism as "normal childhood behavior". It may be common in our backwards world, but is definitely not normal or healthy. While watching a Movie depicting Mean Girls and how they treat others might be entertaining for some, this is definitely not realistic. As we all know, having an N-counter is not enjoyable and is very toxic. Some very young girls get addicted to the drama & chaos from toxic relationships.

On the flip side, I must say that the You Again movie trailer looks like the movie would offer a lot of laughs and be fun to watch. It is very important that we explain to our children exactly what we find funny and why and how certain N-behaviors are not funny at all. Perhaps this a great chance to open dialogue w/our children about Authentic Friends and how Mean Girls become Mean Women. How bullies don't grow in love only in age and don't get better, but instead much worse over time. We need to explain to our childeren how these N-counters drain a person's time and energy and it is best to invest our time, energy, love into Authentic Friends who can reciprocate love, appreciation, respect, trust, etc. How toxic people are over drawn because they keep requesting authentic love from us and give none in return which makes us feel emotionally bankrupt after an N-counter.

Has anyone seen this movie and what did you think?



Here is another interesting article,
http://www.ehow.com/how_4528252_tell-friends-frenemies.html

I guess symbolically speaking, if people could be identified by colors, an Authentic Friend would be white (or perhaps your favorite color), an enemy would be black (or your least favorite color [black happens to be one of my favs]), and a Frienemies would be a shade of grey. I never liked grey, not really sure why? I have no desire to have Grey Friends or Frienemies.

Raising An Amazing Generation

I watched a few episodes called, Raising An Amazing Generation, and what I saw impressed me. Carol demonstrates that our children are unique individuals w/ their own personality, thinking processes and learning styles which must be considered when raising children. Raising Children requires much more than simply understanding the basic principles of Behavior Modification (classical & operant conditioning) . Books that have a one style fits all approach may not be the best resource/fit for your child/ren.

I have been impressed w/ CK's teachings,
http://www.insp.com/raising-an-amazing-generation/episodes/

http://www.insp.com/raising-an-amazing-generation/episodes/

http://www.insp.com/raising-an-amazing-generation/resources/

I saw the shows that went over the Art of Discipline and How Is Your Child Wired to Learn? I am thinking about ordering them,
http://www.insp.com/raising-an-amazing-generation/shop/

Personality Plus for Parents, also looks like a interesting book.
http://classervices.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/page1.html

Has anyone else read these books?

Here is another thread discussing good parenting books.

Comparing Carol Ardizzone and Ted Tripp's very different viewpoints on modifying a child's behavior & raising an amazing child w/a great heart, Carol definitely keeps the heart of a child in mind and w/Ted's I am left wondering, Where is the Love and Grace in his approach? His heart seems calloused to me in regards to physical discipline/punishment (spanking).

At this point in my life, I am neither totally advocating spanking, nor am I completely against it. After using spanking/swatting I ask myself, is my DD better for it, is our family, because I never feel good after it which is always a signal to self NOT to do it. My H and I have spanked our D. It usually was the last resort. We do it very infrequently (less than once a month, sometimes once every two months, as time goes by it is less and less), the magnitude & duration of the spanking is very controlled, no more than one for each year of her life, 3 years old = 3 spankings, and they are a swat not a "beating or whipping". Still the few times I have spanked my child she has recovered and I am emotionally and psychologically messed up for days due to the abuse I suffered from the Momster in my childhood. Surely there is a better way.

The more I realize what it takes to keep spanking as a very controlled discipline/punishment and if we are being honest most of our population lack this amount of accountability, introspection, and control I realize that it is extremely dangerous to recommend spanking to the general public. It is opening Pandora's box to child abuse. If there is any chance what-so-ever that discipline can turn into abuse (even on a very small scale), then as my H & I say, it is better to be too safe than too sorry, and not resort to spanking. A great alternative to spanking is to send a child to his/her room, or even the bathroom until s/he can calm down and is ready to listen and do what was asked (ie, clean up toys). Losing a reward should be the consequence of bad behavior.

Because of so many people still using physical punishment (there appears to be a revival of 'the old ways'), let us assume these people are not narcissists. Parents with control over their impulses, a healthy conscience, the ability to stay in the moment without losing themselves in the past...in other words, people who consciously choose to discipline a child without humiliating or crushing their spirits. With people like this, perhaps they cannot imagine what a dangerous door they are opening by suggesting physical punishment is acceptable? Maybe they can't even imagine that giving a N an inch takes a mile out of a powerless child's hide? For that reason, my stance is No Spanking. It's so easy for a slap to escalate to abuse. Ns can justify anything. ~CZ

We've been discussing parenting on another thread that started out asking member's about Shepherding a Child's Heart by Ted Tripp and main topics: physical discipline and the negative impact this may have on a developing child's psyche. I have not read Mr. Tripp's book and we're relying on excerpted comments from other sites. However, these quoted comments from Mr. Tripp are very revealing in identifying a very dangerous person.

Here are two reviews I found on line,

Reviewed by Sarah (Chicago), June 17, 2010

A few things I have to ask...how many of you actually grew up with parents that read books like this one? How do you feel about your parents know? Do you have children of your own and if so do you look at your parents as a good example? - My parents read a book like this as I was growing up, following it like a bible. I grew up a very servant like child, always afraid around every corner. Always looking for my parents acceptance. I got spankings when I was bad. - The part that terrifies me the most about parents that take "spanking" so seriously is when I think about myself so worried out of my mind when I was about to get a spanking. It actually still gives me horrible stomach aches if I think about it long enough and I am a grown women. I was told the very thing this book teaches "we are doing this because God loves you and he wants you to obey". Really??? I was a perfect child out of fear. I didn't do bad things because I was so scared. Is that any way for a child to live? In fear? Yes we should definitely fear the Lord, but we obey him because we love him! Not because we are afraid he is going to physically hurt us!! I am sorry but you really have to truly think about these things and ask other people that were maybe brought up this before you start doing this to your own children.

Reviewed by J H (Virginia), June 07, 2008

This book changed my life too, it nearly destroyed my family. As a naive new parent, I went to a seminar by Tripp. I desperately wanted to do things right, to parent Biblically. My spouse and I read and reread the book and faithfully followed the principles; so for the next 2 years we could not understand why our relationship with our son was deteriorating. Instead of learning to obey, he was learning to lie so he wouldn't get caught. He did not respect us, he feared us. We cried out to God in prayer asking what we were doing wrong, there was no fruit in our family and we were miserable. I went back to the rod verses that Tripp quotes as the basis for spanking and I was led to study deeper. Instead of taking them at face value (which does seem to indicate that you should punish children by beating them with a weapon), I did word studies on each word in Hebrew. I consulted with a rabbi to confirm what I was learning. I was shocked to find that orthodox Jews, who still follow the Law in its entirety and are careful to obey Old Testament precepts literally, do not understand those verses to mean that a parent should hit children with a rod. Hebrew understanding is much different. Our family is also very different now. We have had a complete paradigm shift on what Christian discipline is. Our son is in therapy working out the attachment issues he suffered and our family is fruitful now, in many ways, as God has blessed us with 2 more. I enjoy parenting now that I'm not looking for "willful disobedience" around every corner. If I were to sum it up I'd say that Tripp makes sense on addressing your child's heart, but he believes the way to do that is by using behaviorism, not discipleship. Please don't be as naive as I was, my family suffered so much. Dig deeper, study Scripture in the original language, strive to understand at more than just face value. Try Heartfelt Discipline by Clay Clarkson instead or even better, Biblical Parenting by Crystal Lutton.

http://family.christianbook.com/shepherding-childs-heart-pack-2-volumes/tedd-tripp/pd/4221?item_code=WW&netp_id=289054&event=ESRCN&show_all_cr=1#customer_reviews

Tripp He is what I refer to as a Counterfeit Christian who is committing & advocating spiritual abuse as well as physical, psychological, verbal & emotional abuse.

If anyone's spiritual leaders, friends, or family are recommending this book, please, please, please Trust your WoNderful Intuition when Tripp's statements/viewpoints/recommendations do not sit well in your spirit. This book from hell is an Excuse for Abuse. His comments are so very triggering and I had to stop reading because my heart is breaking at the thought of desperate parents taking this abusive man's advice and mistakingly thinking that they are doing right by their children).

I wonder what reason your leader chose this particular christian parenting book? There are a bunch out there, why this one? ~RB

I am wondering the same thing. I am not exaggerating when I say that all the Momster would have needed was to read this 101 ways to Beat your child until s/he is "sweet" and I would not be alive today. When I read these few quotes I am not getting the feeling of a loving adult who values children, but a evil slave master who wants to beat his servants into submission.

I am praying that God fills you w/Supernatural courage to open dialogue w/the other parents in your community, so that these parents w/good intentions don't get brainwashed into slaughtering the souls of their children. If I ever needed a reason to give up spanking reading this toxic evil crap would be it.

I want to thank everyone who is adding great resources for those of us who were born into the KoN who want to end the Legacy of Abuse. I was the kid with the story no one would believe. BUT by the GRACE & LOVE of God, my life could have had a variety of different alternative very tragic endings (suicide, addict, permanent psychiatric resident, killing the Monster who hurt my sister and myself, and becoming a Momster to my child and repeating what was done to me). Christ taught me what Authentic Love was all about. His love is amazing. There is truth and there is grace. The Original Counterfeit (devil) knows how to twist God's words to serve his evil agenda and this is who I believe is inspiring Mr. Tripps book. What happens to a child who never experiences Authentic Love? Mr. Tripp's book is a recipe for Creating Criminals instead of Compassionate People.

I heard this song on the radio yesterday and it touched my heart. All a child wants is to know that s/he is loved just for being who they are, Just Love Me For Me.

My DD was not quite 3 yrs old when she asked me, Mommy why do you love me? My intial response was to list all her great attributes & talents, thoughtfulness, kind heart, beautiful smile, her great hugs, compassion for others, etc -- but stopped and said, I love you just for who you are, you are Emma, and I love you. I love you for being you. I love you just for being Emma. Children need to know that they are loved just for who they are, and do not have to be perfect to earn love. They have intrinsic value. My H & I are open w/our DD. We explain to her that there are behaviors we like (thoughtfulness, kindness, sharing, etc.) and behaviors we don't like (selfishness, tantrums, defiant, etc), but we always love her. Her rewards & privileges are based on her behavior, but our love for her is not -- It is unconditional. It is not something she has to earn and is not something that will be taken away.

Just because something is widely accepted does not make it right. Do you know where the Rule of Thumb originated from? I learned in my Woman Studies that the term originally referred to a law that limited the maximum thickness of a stick with which it was permissible for a man to beat his wife & children.

What are we teaching our children when we physically reprimand them? If you do not do as I want it is okay for me to physically punish you. I do not want my D to believe that it is okay for others to physically hurt her if she disagrees with them. I also do not want to go to the other extreme as my Nsib has done w/her youngest and not discipline thus creating a spoiled brat that does not realize that her choices have consequences.

So much of what Tripp says disgusts me. Spanking a 8 month old, excessive amount of spanking, 20, 50, 100 times (sounds like someone is enjoying what he is doing), and the statement that crushed me was,
p.152 If the child is angry about being whipped, then “the discipline session is not over” and Tripp says to whip them some more until they are “sweet”. -- what does this remind you of? Sounds like Learned Helplessness. The child doesn't even have the freedom to be angry about being the physical pain s/he is experiencing. Are children suppose to endure the physical pain until they no longer show any resistance to it? Don't be angry, don't be upset, don't cry, don't make a sound, just smile and be "sweet" while I am causing you physical & emotional pain. I would also like to see how his 8 month old turned out.

If I only knew then what I know now. . .

We all have said, hindsight is 20/20, so true! This got me thinking, what if CZ purchased a Time Machine from all the money earned from the future sold WoN coffee mugs and T-shirts,
and each of us separately got to take a trip back in time, When and where would you go? How far back you go depends on you. You get to pick the time and place to talk to your former self.

How old would you be?
What would you be wearing and What would you be doing?
Do you see yourself? What is the first feeling you experience when you see her?

If we could Time Travel back to our previous self what information would we share with her?
What wisdom about Self and others would you like to share with her?
If only you knew Then what you know Now -- what would you say to her?
What is the most important thing you would like to share with her?
What is the most important thing she needs to hear from you?

PS. I watched the movie, The Time Traveler's Wife last night. I enjoyed it.

Here is the follow up link,

http://www.webofnarcissism.com/forums/index.php/topic,7584.0.html

Why do they keep on attacking?

But why when all I do is offer love, forgiveness, understanding, etc does s/he continue to disrespect, not appreciate, devalue, attack and hurt me? How come they can or will not reciprocate what has been given to them?

Simple. . . it is in his/her nature. It is what toxic people do, they attack, because they enjoy it because it is in their nature.

Have you heard about the story, The Scorpion and the Frog or The Scorpion & the Fox?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu44zAcqnXg&NR=1

The only way to out fox a scorpion is to have NO CONTACT with it.

When I googled this story about the Scorpion I noticed there were different versions of the same story all ending the same way. While the Scorpion stayed the same, its targets, the one it attacked varied from a frog/toad, turtle/tortoise, fox and swan. It reminded me of WoN that while we have individual differences are attackers remain the same, they attack because it is their nature.

I also came across the story of The Scorpion and the Swan and found this very interesting blog,

which confirmed to me that it is not only the projected lies that toxic people tell us, but even more importantly it is the lies we project onto the toxic person. Yikes! It is about the lies we tell our Self about the toxic person and about ourself that we are strong enough to handle the deadly sting of the Scorpion.

There was a Swan at the edge of a river and a scorpion approached asking the swan if she would kindly give him a ride to the other side of the river on her back. The swan said "no, you are a scorpion, you will sting me and I will die." The scorpion assured the swan that he wouldn't do that, all he wanted was a ride to the other side and he promised she was safe with him. So the swan gave in and allowed the scorpion to climb upon her back. She swan to the other side and just before reaching the shore the scorpion stung her and jumped to safety. As the swan was sinking, slowly dying from the poisons she asked the scorpion why he broke his promise and stung her. The scorpion said "I'm a scorpion, that is what I do."

Ernie asked me why I believed that the swan allowed the scorpion on her back. I said it was because she was denying her instincts. He said it went deeper than that. So I asked Ernie to explain. He said the swan was projecting her swan like qualities upon the scorpion.

There is that word "projection" again. When we come to understand narcissism we find that narcissists are masters at projection. They take the dark qualities within themselves and project them onto those who love them. But we don't often think about our own projections. We just as easily project our goodness upon the narcissist in our lives and then we fall in love with the good qualities in ourselves projected upon the other. We see the narcissist (scorpion) as someone who is empathetic, caring, loving, concerned, compassionate and honest, because this is who we are. The narcissist gladly owns our projections and gives us his dirt. We get accused of being the very thing we eventually come to see in him.

I remember being accused of being selfish, greedy, uncommitted, angry, bi-polar and a host of other things that left me questioning whether or not this was really true. The most difficult thing was that he really seemed to believe it. He believed he was the pure one and I was the one poisoning his reality with my impurities. But once the veil was lifted and I could see through the narcissistic Web of Illusion I could see that who he accused me of being was never the truth about me.

One thing I notice with many of my clients is that they just can't believe the narcissist in thier lives was capable of doing the things he/she did. It is so out of character from the person they believed him or her to be. The ending of the relationship is almost always traumatic because the "swan" learns she has been deceived. She trusted the narcissist and believed in him and is shocked at his sudden change in behavior. She is shocked that he has no feeling about her sinking and drowning and just hops off as if nothing ever happened. She gave him her life! She believed him when he said he would never sting her. And now he laughs in the face of her pain and disbelief. "Stupid swan!" He says as he hops off! "I can always count on their goodness to get what I want."

If I were to imagine the rest of the story I would say the swan sunk down to the bottom of the river only to find the bodies of all those beautiful swans that came before her. She was not the first, nor would she be the last. Because it is the nature of the scorpion to sting.

http://www.narcissismfree.com/swan-and-scorpion.php

More detail on the Swan and Scorpion can be found at the link above.

Wait a minute folks there is more to this story is not over yet! The Scorpion has a hard thick out shell and aside from his belly full of poison which supplies his deadly tail he is completely hallow inside which gives him the ability to remain at the very surface rather than to sink to the depths of devastation like the beautiful swan who is a very solid creature. What the Scorpion fails to realize is that the beautiful swan while covered in complete darkness has the spirit of the Phoenix and will rise born again and even stronger than before because now she has the ability to soar. Meanwhile the Scorpion filled w/deadly toxins is being destroyed from within. He is devolving and deconstructing during each attack until he implodes and self-destructs because he had no substance to keep him afloat and he has no spirit to be born again. Any decaying remains of his life becomes food for the scum of the Earth. His life becomes utter waste while the majestic swan soars to new heights where the sky is her only limit.

Now for another interesting story which I can really relate to which is analogous to why I escaped the KoN. The story is called, The Farmer and the Viper. Have you heard of it?

"The Farmer and the Viper" is a fable often attributed to Aesop. Of ancient origin, it appears in several West African and European sources as well.^[1][2] The story concerns a farmer who finds a viper freezing in the snow. He takes pity on it and picks it up and places it within his coat. The viper, revived by the warmth, bites the farmer. The farmer cries out that he should have seen it coming.

In some versions, the farmer brings the viper home and his children go to pet it. The viper gets ready to bite the children when the farmer cuts off the viper's head.

The moral is that "kindness is wasted on evil".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Farmer_and_the_Viper

I relate to the Farmer because I thought I was strong enough to handle the attacks of the Viper/Momster -- however when I realized the harm that having a Viper in the house was to my child I had no problem Letting Go of the dangerous Viper. I noticed ambient abuse towards my child from the Momster regarding "forgetting" about her birthday gifts when she gave all the other grandchildren gifts. If the Momster simply "forgot" then she would remedy the situation which she never did and in fact made it worse by blaming me for not allowing her to visit more w/my D. Nothing but lies to support her evil behavior. This attack against me and my D is undetectable by many people, but those who have Nparents know how they do the "Set-Up". They do something so cunning, sneaky insidious & subtle that when we call them on it, we look like we are just being "too sensitive or taking things the wrong way" I decided I was not going to let the Viper do a more overt and obvious attack against us, in addition to the Last Straw Moment, My H and I decided time to prune these toxic roots and start a healthy family tree free from the KoN.

Change your words Change your life

I wonder if I have been replaced yet?

Remember, you are an amazing individual who has intrinsic value, thus your uniqueness can not be replaced, he can only find a new source to deceive. He will never find another you, only another source. And you are nobody's source!

Tonight Upsi reminded me of one of the greatest lessons I learned from one of my Therapists/Life Coaches that changed my life because it empowered & grounded me and balanced my life. From that moment I went from just living life to actually enjoying it.

I great short fast read book that was required reading is Hung by the Tongue. If you implement the principles that it teaches it will forever change your life. No joke it is that great! It is required reading for CEO's of many huge big businesses.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ie=UTF8&keywords=hung+by+the+tongue&tag=googhydr-20&index=stripbooks&hvadid=1144008941&ref=pd_sl_d1mqr9rik_b

Quote

We can't break up with our mothers, we can't end the relationship~upsi

I use to feel the same way. Then my T told me what I will share with you, Who says you can not break up or divorce your toxic mother, Who says she must stay in your life? There was a great NY Times article on Divorcing One's Parent, but it is no longer on the internet. Many people choose to do this when they realize that a relationship w/a NM means constant & consistent disappointment and pain at some level or another. I am not in any way telling you or Upsi to go NC that is your choice, but also know that it is also your choice to remain in contact. I guess what I am awkwardly trying to say, the actual words we choose send a message to Self that we have power (I choose to) or no power (I must, have to, forced to, got to, can't, have no other choice etc.) These are words my T told me to remove from my vocabulary for the next 30 days and see what happens. using words that say I have no power over my life. I could only use the phrase, I choose to. . . . Of course I asked her, well there are things we all have to do and she replied, like what? I have to pay rent. Why? Well, I can't not pay. Why Not? I will lose my apartment, have to find another place, ruin my credit, etc. So you choose to pay your rent because you do not like the alternative consequence of not paying the rent, but the choice is still up to you. Choose the behavior choose the accompanying consequence (this of course is the short-version, IRL it took a bit longer for me to fully accept what my T was saying to me ). Even when the choices we have are pretty terrible as in choosing a Toxic Mother or having No Mother, for me it meant No parents, none at all, because I had already choose to go NC w/Monster Dad years ago. So both choices are terrible. Of course my choice would be to have a loving imperfect parent that could value at some level having a D that loves her, and she could love me in return, but that is not reality. Wish it was, but it is not. That is only an illusion. What I had to do first was to grieve the dream/the goal/the illusion that someday in some small way my life would have true meaning to my NM other than a source of NS. This third choice is not ever going to be available to me no matter how hard I tried, cried, and prayed. So I have two choices available to me and at the end of this month I will be celebrating my choice's First Anniversary of NC. I do agree w/Gavin de Becker author of The Gift of Fear, that if I never realized it was my choice to stay in a relationship w/a N person than I would never realize that I had the power to choose to leave it. When you choose NC whether it is temp. or permanent you say to the N , but most importantly you say to yourself that The Pain Stops Here & Now. By Pain it not only limited to heart ache & physical discomfort; it also includes, Stress, Anxiety, Depression, Confusion, Learned Helplessness, Anger, Fear, Guilt, etc. and everything that goes all with these. NC means No More New Pain to be added to your life from the N where to me LC, which I have done since my senior year in HS, means that I am taking a Time Out from the Pain, but the Pain always resumes w/contact (ie new attacks = new pain). NC does not have to be something you set in stone. You can do it for a year, or 6 months, and at the end ask yourself:

Have I had enough time to heal all the old pain before I add some new pain on top of the old? Just because the pain is not present does not mean it is completely healed. Absent of pain does not mean healing necessarily, it could mean that the person that triggers the pain (the toxic person) is not present to elicit it.

Do I want to resume contact = resume attacks = resume pain or renew another year of NC to continue to work on healing the old pain? or

If the old pain has healed do I want to deal with new pain by resuming contact?

Resume Contact or have another year of NC?

Can you guess which one I am going to choose?

Last year I was at the Proverbial Cross Roads. There are two roads before me. The familiar one that behind me shows abuse in my past, beside me shows abuse in my present, and down the road leads me to more abuse waiting to attack me, or there is the unfamiliar road that offers Freedom from abuse and a Journey to Healing. This road I hear provides an Escape from the Kingdom of Narcissism (the KoN) & abuse to a Whole New World of Understanding, Validation & Love, the Land of Love Now that I have had my first year of NC (I actually did NC for a year once before in my life) continuing another year of NC is not scary and I have peace about it.
http://www.webofnarcissism.com/forums/index.php/topic,6961.msg21582.html#msg21582

Quote

Sometimes I just want to run away! ~ Seekingme

Oh do I remember this feeling. This is a choice available to you. When I left the KoN it started off with escaping the Pain, but somewhere along the Journey it became about. . . . letting go and seeking me.
I think you might like this thread.
Metaphorically speaking, What kind of shoes are you wearing right now?
http://www.webofnarcissism.com/forums/index.php/topic,7070.0.html

book that is very inexpensive, a very quick read and life changing for me was
Hung by the Tongue
http://www.amazon.com/Hung-Tongue-What-You-Say/dp/0965243303/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1290110047&sr=1-1

Check out the reviews,
"Martin shows that success and defeat is born in the mind. We as humans tend to speak what we believe. Martin shows that what we speak can bring on failure or victory."

Even from a critic, " I struggled to read the book fully since I do not believe in God and this book was all from the perspective of a God-fearing soul. But this offered some tremendous advice - the power of words that leave our mouth. In fact, one example stood out - if one is arrested in the US, the cops "recite" some sentences. Almost always that starts with "You have the right to remain SILENT. Anything you say may be used against you in the court of law....". That was a big eye-opener! As they say in management - "When in deep s**t, keep your mouth shut"! Watch what you say! Read this book! And if you are god-fearing, you will reap much more postives from this book."

Before I knew there was a word for Projected Lies, I read this book. It taught me how to deal & heal from Projected Lies from the KoN and to be a Friend to Self. Even if you don't share the Spiritual Perspective, the Principles & Precepts are Powerful. It will help to empower Self and protect self from being one's own worst enemy.

Hung by the Tongue is worth more than its weight in gold!

Jealousy. . . Friend or Foe?

Great info on the difference between Envy and Jealousy.

http://www.webofnarcissism.com/forums/index.php/topic,7429.msg27521.html#msg27521

"Envy-prone people who experience goodness in another person feel the goodness to be painfully insufficient and resent both their own dependency upon the other and the other's control over the goodness. Envy is defined as hatred directed toward good objects. Compared to 'regular' hatred, in which the good object is protected [and] the bad object is attacked, in hatred with primitive envy another's goodness is experienced as a threat to the person's own grandiosity or idealized self-experience,and the goodness is destroyed. In other words, by attacking the good object, the person is trying to ward off feelings of pain, vulnerability, dependency, and defectiveness that are evoked by recognizing the threatening goodness in another person. Envy can destroy the possibility for hope and diminish capacity for enjoyment." ~Elsa Ronningstam, Understanding and Identifying the Narcissistic Personality

She also writes: "Malicious envy, which is followed by pain and feelings of inferiority, involves a wish to eliminate or destroy what one is not able to possess and destructive efforts can even be directed toward the other person's happiness, future accomplishments, and relationships."

In Drew Pinsky's book, The Mirror Effect, he writes: "In psychological terms, there is an important difference between envy and jealousy. Jealousy can be a mobilizing force: I want what you have and I'm going to figure out how to get it. Envy, on the other hand, involves direct aggression."

Let me repeat that last bit: "Envy, on the other hand, involves direct aggression: I want what you have, and it makes me feel bad. so I'm going to take it from you, or at least knock you down to my size. Envy, thus, is far more toxic than simple jealousy." ~Drew Pinsky, the Mirror Effect, page 160

I use to hate the Momster who tried to destroy my life, but now I pity her. Hate takes a tremendous amount of life energy to invest into someone who does not love you as Ns are simple not worth it. I would rather invest my energy into love because it yields greater returns. Hate just leaves one bankrupt if you over invest into it for an extended amount of time. It serves a purpose to protect you while you are in the KoN and motivate you to leave it. After you have discovered your LOL hate no longer has a purpose.

Ns are envious & jealous creatures. Ns are not jealous of everyone, only those who threaten their false Counterfeit image who they would like to be like, who they envy, thus their jealousy and attacks are personal. The Momster is jealous of a lot of people that is why she hurts many people, but there are those whom she is not jealous of and does not attack once again demonstrating that the attacks from Ns are personal. I know there are people who want to believe that these attacks are not personal, that the poor pathological Ns can not help themselves, they are emotionally retarded and we should have empathy for them. They are not cognitively retarded they are emotionally retard and the difference is choice and control. They do have a choice to attack or not and they precisely choose when and whom to attack, thus it is very personal.

http://www.webofnarcissism.com/forums/index.php/topic,7141.msg24410.html#msg24410

Many Ns thrive off of pathological competitiveness. When they feel that they can not compete & conquer then the resentment and contempt towards us take over. This is why if you take a N boss out on the golf course you have got to let him win, otherwise. . . you lose your job, account, promotion, etc.

Jealousy is to Envy as Resent is to Contempt.

What do you suppose fuels Jealousy and Envy What makes a N want the possessions &/or qualities of others?

Hint: it is found in the last Commandment, as in Thou Shall Not . . .
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/covet

"To covet is to have the strong desire for the possession of others' specific personal properties or relationships, going beyond simply admiring someone Else's possessions or thinking "I'd like to have one of those." Coveting includes envy - resenting the fact that others have what you don't."
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_does_the_Bible_mean_by_'thou_shall_not_covet_thy_neighbour's_wife'

I don't see Jealousy as a healthy trait or desire because it can and often does lead to Envy. Jealousy and Envy are about control and wanting to posses what someone Else has (i.e., covet) and something that is or perceived asunobtainable to Self. It is about a longing for something they can not achieve on their own. It is about a State of Neediness which Ns severely detest, because it opens them up to the potential of being rejected which is their greatest fear, aka Fear of Abandonment. Their motto is, Discard or be Discarded. They are on constant look out for back-up supply so that they never run out. As soon as the N experiences Jealousy the Devaluing Process/Stage begins, because you can not be jealous of someone who you don't value. The onset of the Devaluing indicates a better source has been found because they would never devalue someone whom they truly feel would abandon them and they can only be abandoned if they don't have a replacement source already lined up. For normal people, abandonment is person specific, in that someone of extreme importance (Spouse/Parent/Close Friend) has to reject us to feel abandoned. However, for a N they only feel abandoned if they run out of back-up Sources/Supply. This is the reason they are not heartbroken or devastated after a relationship ends and can walk away like nothing ever happened.

When I see someone who has a talent/skill that I have not acquired and highly value I am inspired by them and I am motivated to learn more to improve my abilities. I admire and appreciate the talents of others. Jealousy leads to devaluing and degrading the skills of others. Ns lack the ability to admire others because that would mean they would have to be humble & comfortable with the reality of someone else being better than them at a particular thing. Being better means having more power in the mind of a N and more power means more control. Thus, Ns are grandiose because they can not give up that sense of control & power over others.

When we are jealous of others are we not devaluing ourselves and the taking for granted the blessings we have in our own lives?

For me it is very important to identify things helpful (good) or hurtful (bad) because that is the only way I was able to accept reality about the Momster, the NFOO and escape the KoN.

Quote

Lots of times we 'are' reacting to unconscious, unclaimed feelings and we don't even know it!~CZ

Totally get that 100%.
I understand the tendency to label something bad can lead some to avoidance where I look for the evidence. I look at emotions/desires as messengers. Some are friendly and some are not, but I listen to what they have to say. I don't know if I would consider Jealousy as a friend and ask her to sit down to tea (do appreciate the concept of not denying her existence), but I would definitely hear what she has to say to me and see if there is any validity. To me I have not found Jealousy to be very friendly, reliable, trustworthy, respectful, nor are her intentions honorable because she often, or usually lies. For example Jealousy says, Did you see that physically fit woman, look how great she looks, remember when you use to look that great? No that's right because when you where physically fit you never thought you looked great, too bad you didn't know then what you know now, you never felt beautiful, well now it's too late, that trained left the station and its going to take along time to come back. Yes, Jealousy likes to point out what you value and that you don't have it and makes you deal w/the loss. Jealousy then asks, Do you want to play my favorite game called Comparison? And when Jealousy is around I have been known to play her game and I use to lose every time. Over the years I have learned how to beat Jealousy at her own game some of the times. What I have learned is best not to play w/her because she cheats too! She reminds me what our society deems as Attractive & Sexy and I don't measure up, too short. Then she asks do you want to take another turn? Sure, my butts too big, that part too, and I hear Jealousy cheering me on, You're on a roll keep going! and I do until Jealousy holds all the cards and just when I think Game Over I have nothing more to lose, Jealousy says. . . let me introduce my Big Sister to ya, LettingGo meet Envy.
Then Jealousy whispers in my ear, oh by the way your H has that look in his eye tonight and wants to be romantic, Doesn't he know that you are hanging out w/us tonight? Just tell him you have a headache.

Yes, I know Jealousy all to well. I know the games she likes to play with me and how she cheats and lies to win. I do not like her, Sam I am. I do not like her here nor there, I do not like her any where. However, I do like her very distant cousin called Inspire who introduces me to Encourage, Desire, and Motivation which says take a dance class and have amazing sex w/your H tonight. Both Jealousy and Inspire bring the same message, but Jealousy's intentions are not Authentic, they are Counterfeit and Toxic. Jealousy offers destruction where Inspire offers improvement through empowerment.

It's nice to know that Jealousy even visits CZ and I know that even though you offer her some tea, you don't give her the guest bedroom. Wouldn't it be great if we could put arsenic in Jealousy's tea? Jealousy will not allow you to fully enjoy your Sis's summer peaches, but will remain quite and not say anything to Sis where as Envy will say to your Sis, last years crop was much sweeter. CZ I hope I can meet you IRL some day and we can have some delicious tea and fresh summer peach pie or cobbler ala mode of course!

Jealousy and Envy I know these b*tches. The Momster introduced them to me and they were my extended family members in the KoN. When they want to come for a visit I send them packing. Jealousy is known to sneak in from time to time. It is great when you have a best friend who can help you be on the look out for Jealousy and can help kick her to the curve.

CZ perhaps you and I know a different Jealousy or maybe I am not as far along this Healing Journey as you are so I can not appreciate her. To me she has been nothing but mean.

Counterfeit Love vs. Authentic Love

Counterfeit Love vs. Authentic Love

How do you tell the difference so that you can avoid being N-chanted by another insidious N?

My Best Friend was the first person in my life who showed me what Authentic Love was all about, so I married him.
What distinguishes him from the Counterfeits I N-countered in my life, those that I lived w/in the KON, those that I became friends with and those I dated?

The two main traits/characteristics that Ns lack are Empathy and Remorse, so Authentic Love would definitelyincluded these very essential ingredients. What else can we add to the list?

The very first thing that comes to mind when I think about my Best Friend is he has a quality that the others lack, which is Honor. How does one describe Honor?

—Synonyms
1. probity, uprightness. Honor, honesty, integrity, sincerity refer to the highest moral principles and the absence of deceit or fraud. Honor denotes a fine sense of, and a strict conformity to, what is considered morally right or due: a high sense of honor; on one's honor. Honesty denotes the presence of probity and particularly the absence of deceit or fraud, esp. in business dealings: uncompromising honesty and trustworthiness. Integrity indicates a soundness of moral principle that no power or influence can impair: a man of unquestioned integrity and dependability. Sincerity implies absence of dissimulation or deceit, and a strong adherence to truth: His sincerity was evident in every word. 3. deference, homage; reverence, veneration. Honor, consideration, distinction refer to the regard in which one is held by others. Honor suggests a combination of liking and respect: His colleagues held him in great honor. Consideration suggests honor because of proved worth: a man worthy of the highest consideration. Distinction suggests particular honor because of qualities or accomplishments: She achieved distinction as a violinist at an early age. 5. distinction. 13. esteem, venerate.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/honor

What Distinguishes Counterfeit Love vs. Authentic Love?

Whether or not you have found Authentic Love in your life,

What other characteristics would you say separate Counterfeit Love from Authentic Love?
(If you could put them in bold type that would be great!)

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