Letting go of toxic people (parents, spouses, family, and friends) with honor.
Tuesday, September 29, 2009
The Ultimate Gaslighting--you be the judge!
* I am updating this Post because due to recent changes at a Forum I once Highly recommended, I now have to add it to the Unsafe Forum List. For details on the WoN Forum, Click Here. Is it "as bad" as the Forum Listed below? Some say yes, some say no, so you need to judge for yourself and make your own decision. "Not as bad" is still No Good.
(Below is about a different On-Line Support Group Forum)
Are you ready to get your advanced degree in detecting Narcissism and Gaslighting? Here is a great case study for you. Go grab a snack and something to drink and come back for some great education! I believe that this can be a huge learning experience for me as well as for others and what the enemy meant for bad God can use for good. When you have God on your side, no weapon formed against you shall prosper. No matter how cunning, devious, or powerful the weapon is God's light of truth will shine through. Because you are reading this post you are seeking the truth, while there will be others that will be afraid of it. Bravo for you for seeking the truth and wanting to find out the facts for yourself. Even if you were not apart of the Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers (DONM) forum you can benefit from reading the following because it demonstrates how the mind of narcissist works. Those of you who belong to the same DONM (Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers) "support group" forum you know first hand how I speak and one mention of God or Son in one sentence does not constitute preaching/proselytizing/over speaking my religion/. For those that do not belong to this forum then you will have to just take my word for it in addition to those who were there and experienced first hand how I speak on a secular forum. One of my first posts I did list scriptures so I can see how that one post in their minds was "over speaking my religion". This was my very first forum, so I didn't even know about the PMs (private messages), which is how they sent the warnings. The second warning I received was because in Danu's I Sing: post where she said she didn't know where that voice came from telling her to sing, I suggested that it came from her loving Creator. This is all it took and I was Banned! I e-mailed Danu and told her I didn't even receive the warnings because I didn't know the PM thing existed. She said she understood that and gave me another chance. After I was warned I immediately modified my speech to try and "fit in". Other members are permitted to talk about God -- so why can't I? Why can't I say that if we are open to it, God will bring loving people to fill the void of NM (Narcissistic Mothers) and siblings? Why is it that others can mention God, but I am told NEVER have any religious words in my sentences. Why is it okay to bash God and His people on this DONM forum -- that hurts and offends believers (I am not the only one although I was meant to feel that way) and that is allowed, but to give God one sentence of credit not permitted. When I pointed this out I was told, "Like in real life there are more than twice as many non-believers than believers on the forum."I understand first hand the anger one can have towards God and Christians (I have been in that place myself along my healing journey, so it is very understandable and I never complained about it). Nothing angers me more than to hear how abusive people that claim to know God abuse His words to hurt others. God's purpose for our lives is to love and be loved and abuse is never apart of it. These abusers can never represent, nor speak for our loving Jesus. Many people take on the title of Christian, but not the life. I have read Danu's Code of Conduct over and over again, line by line, and I did not break it and she knows that. They refuse to update it and make it clear that NO reference to God is permitted. They persecute me behind closed doors yet don't update their Code of Conduct to represent their own viewpoints against God--why is that?
Below is what Danu and Light are lying about me breaking the Code of Conduct. The statements in "bluequotes" are what they say I did wrong/the rule/s I broke from the Code of Conduct. You are smart and insightful people, you be the judge. This is a very abusive situation and Danu and Light are acting like narcissistic parents trying to Gaslight me thinking that this is my problem when it is clearly theirs. Weird thing is Danu started this "support group" because she was being mistreated in another forum -- how is she not doing the same here, ask her that one!
As in a court of law, let's stick to the facts and only the facts. Removing Danu's, Light's and my personal differences in principles/viewpoints/beliefs, the fact remains that Danu's Code of Conduct is misleading people into a trap. According to her own Code of Conduct, not her personal beliefs, I broke no rule! If she wants the Code of Conduct to reflect her personal beliefs then she must do that--shouldn't she? Yes, of course she should, but that would be the open and honest thing to do and she is not honest about how she hates God and Believers.
Read for the following yourself. It is the response I sent Light when she was trying to Gaslight me:
Danu has recently asked me to put one of my postings on her website, so obviously what I have to say is helping others. Our goals are the same, which is to help others. This forum is a Godsend-it really is and I know you don't want God to be a part of it, but He is whether you acknowledge Him or not. We are not always going to agree with each other's viewpoint and that is okay. This is a free world and an open forum right? Both viewpoints should be respected whether or not we agree with one another. Can we not get past this difference for the greater good? Surely we can. I am willing-how about you?
You ladies have got to relax. You need to give me a tenny tiny bit of free expression, just a little bit is all I ask. :D I have extremely modified my posting from the first one in which I listed scripture. That one I agree could be seen as breaking the rule of "over speaking my religion."
HOWEVER, in this case I was NOT preaching/proseltyzing-and you know it! You are a very smart woman and you know one little sentence does not = proseltyzing!
I just wanted to share in one sentence what got rid of the huge amount of guilt that I was feeling. If it were something I got out of a self-help book that would be okay. Well, for me and many others on this forum and in life, the Bible is a recognized self-help book, even if you don't recognize it as so. I know that there are many others that struggle with the huge amount of guilt about making the decision to go NC, a lot of these ladies are believers. One sentence does NOT constitute for "proseltyse or otherwise OVER-SPEAK OF YOUR RELIGION." And you know it!
Just one sentence does NOT constitute for "gratuitous religious content". And you know it!
"Mentioning of God, Christianity, etc., continues. THE MENTIONING OF TEXT FROM ANY BELIEF SYSTEM IS OVER-SPEAKING, AND IS NOT ALLOWED." (this exact rule that they say I broke does not even exist)
You are gaslighting me! I have thought did I miss something? Where in the rules does it say that? I looked and looked and looked some more and did not find this rule. You NEED to add the above to the Code of Conduct. I just checked it and it is NOT there. So according to your own rules I am NOT in violation. :shock:
I and others have asked Danu to update the Code of Conduct because she herself admits "the code is unclear". You need to make it very clear. How come you don't add this rule? How come you don't add that any form of God, Son, Jesus, is not allowed? Why not be clear so we know exactly what not to say on this "open" forum? I can NOT be in violation of a rule that does not exist!
Here is an example of one of my post (only the words in green are from my original post) and the only mention of God in it. This is not apart of this original e-mail, but it shows you how I spoke on the forum & gives an example of how they are trying to portray me as someone who "over speaks their religion".
Again thank you so very, very much for starting this thread. It really solidified things for me. Love the boat story from X (this part is not apart of my original post, but it is what I was responding to. The boat story is where a flood comes and a man is warned by the tv to evacuate, then the radio, people drive by and encourage the man to leave to safety with them and he refuses, then a boat comes by to rescue him and he refuses, then at last a helicopter, and he still refuses. When he dies and goes to heaven he asks St Peter, why didn't God come to rescue him? And St. Peter says, what do you mean? God sent the TV message, radio message, someone that drove by to pick you up, someone on a boat to get you and someone on a helicopter) . I am with you all, let's climb in the boat and sail away from the narcissistic sinking past. That was nm's home not ours. Our beautiful, loving, peaceful, joy filled home awaits just over the horizon under the Son.
Have an awesome blessed weekend!
Hi Soaring Dove, hope you're well!
Just a quick heads up to say we edited your post to remove the reference to The Son - it was just a bit against the guidelines.
All best, Danu
Why is it okay to use God's name in vain on this forum? That hurts many of us and is putting a religion down. That is breaking your own rule, yet it is not being inforced, why not?
"In practice, this means that you are absolutely free to share your beliefs, no matter what they are, once they're legal. Also that you will not be criticised for those beliefs, or told they're evil etc."
You don't have the above mentioned rule in your code of conduct so I broke no rule. The fact that your ownrule says that "I am absolutely free to share my/your beliefs, no matter what they are, once they're legal (which I have proven that mine are). Also that you will not be criticised for those beliefs" means that YOU are breaking the rules, not me.
"I know that many (most?) religion firmly believe that they're the only right one, and that's fine too. But I ask that you leave that at the door when you come in here. At least, obviously you'll still think/believe/know that your religion is the right one, but for the purposes of discussion on this forum I ask that you respond to others' religions/beliefs as if they're equally valid" -- taken directly from Danu's Code of Conduct.
I didn't put anyone's religion down so I broke no rule.
"(Or if you don't like it, don't respond to the post, and just ignore it.)"-- taken directly from Danu's Code of Conduct.
How come your own rule is NOT being inforced? What about freedom of speech?
"SHARING FAITH/RELIGION: Bear in mind that this forum is for people of all faiths and none. Please respect that by not insisting that your faith/religion is the right one. By all means feel free to discuss what religion you are where it's relevant, e.g. to discuss how your religion affects your situation with your Narcissistic Mother, but do not proselytise. This comes back to RESPECT."-- taken directly from Danu's Code of Conduct.
Again one sentence does not constitute "proselytizing", so I did NOT break a rule.
In fact, I was discussing how this one sentence got rid of the huge guilt I was feeling regarding going NC with the nm. So you are breaking this rule by not letting me share in just one sentence!
"So, for example, if somebody says she just can't forgive her NM, don't tell her that Christianity says you have to forgive, so she should. Likewise, if somebody who says she's Christian says she's struggling with forgiving, but feels she needs to as her religion asks for it, then don't post that she shouldn't worry about it, that Christianity is wrong to say that. In each case, either meet the poster where she is, or if that's not possible, then don't respond." -- taken directly from Danu's Code of Conduct.
Okay, here it says we can talk about our Christianity. So I very briefly did in one sentence. Again, you are breaking your ownrule by not letting me share!
Again, You need to give me a tenny tiny bit of free expression, just a little bit is all I ask.
Both viewpoints should be respected whether or not we agree with one another. Can we not get past this difference for the greater good? Surely we can. I am willing-how about you?
(after I got another e-mail gaslighting me I sent the next one)
As stated before, one little sentence does not = proseltyzing andyou said that we are not alloud to share any religious text at all what so ever-where does it say that in the Code of Conduct. I searched and did not find that rule?
What I did find is how we are not supose to put any body's religion down, which I did not and I found this in the Spiritual section if I am correct:
"(Or if you don't like it, don't respond to the post, and just ignore it)"-- taken directly from Danu's Code of Conduct.
Why can't you follow your own rule?
There is a lot of great info on NM's and the support and advice from the other women is awesome, but the forum is not "open & safe". I have been deeply hurt by this fact. I am not the only one who has been harassed. You are trying to make it my problem which it is not because the Code is not clear as Danu herself has said. The rule you say I broke does not even exist and you refuse to add it to the Code-this is very bizzare!
Danu has been asked by others, including myself, several times to update the code to make it clear that no mention of God in any form, and no mention of religious text in any form be allowed. To be very clear on what we can and can not say on the forum, but she refuses to update the code, why? If this issue comes up again and again, why not make the rules very clear, unless she does not want to be honest in fear that she will lose a lot of the members she already has and doesn't want to turn anyone else away from being open and honest about where she stands on giving any positive mention to God. It's crazy because there are other posts that mention God and they are not deleted, very confusing. I pointed this out and she still refuses to update the code to clear things up. I don't know why I have a huge neon target on my back.
You need to update your Code so that people can make an informed decision before joining and forming friendships. You and Danu run the forum, but you are NOT the forum. There is difinately a mini-god complex going on in running the forum. The friendships that I have formed here is what keeps me coming back inspite of the harassment that I am receiving from you. I tried so very hard to "fit in", but you refuse to give me not even one little sentence of free expression with my own experiences-wasn't even commenting on anyone elses experience. I am truly trying my very best and some posts you may have noticed I don't mention God at all. I am holding back as much as I possible can, but there are times with my own experiences where my conscious will not let me NOT give credit to my Savior. You see, no you don't see, but Jesus has saved me in so many ways. I wish you two would give me just a tiny bit of free expression when I need to share my own experience. This would be the right thing to do. Wont you please see that and meet me part way?
Because you've now received two warnings, it's a VERY good idea to avoid further religious content in posts altogether. That's what I do in 100% of my posts, as do other members. As a result, none of us have warnings racked up. It's a good idea for you to do the same, I think, in order to preserve your membership.
If you aren't willing to do this, you don't have to. But there's some risk involved, of course. I prefer no risk, myself.
I logged on the DONM forum and found that I have been Permanently banned for mentioning GOD in my posts. It was either when I wrote Free At Last! Free At Last! Thank God Almighty I am Free at Last! (I don't think this is the one because I wrote it before and nothing happened) or the other post when I said if we are open to it God will send us loving people to fill the void of hurtful people like NM & NSis. No preaching nothing more than what others have wrote on the forum. Others can mention God, but I can not this is crazy narcissistic behavior. They are persecuting me because I am a Christian, you now know it, I know it, and if they are honest with themselves they know it too! Pray that someone can help Danu see that she is being abusive. I have given her so much time and chances to make this horrible situation right and instead it keeps getting worse and worse. This is only a sample of the abuse that took place behind closed doors, and below is just a couple more and there is still more, but with these I think for those that are open to the truth will see it and those that aren't never will, until maybe it happens to them!
Danu got mad when I suggested that the voice that told her to sing was from her loving Creator (non-specific religious form of God which is widely excepted as the PC thing to say) she wrote:
"when I explained about my singing experience, it wasn't appropriate for you to tell me, for example, that that was a mesage from my Creator. You don't know that. And I know you genuinely believe it was, but you must realise that you don't know that I'm in a position to hear that. I might be an atheist who doesn't believe in a Creator, for example. (I'm just using my own thread as an example - this is not about what I believe or don't believe.)"
In a post that was deleted and I was told that it was "inappropriate and wrong" to post it had to do when God saved my beautiful daughter and was told by Danu,
"Or, you asked what was wrong in saying the being able to sing thought was a message from my Creator. For all you know, I'm an atheist and don't believe in a creator. Or maybe it was Allah or Vishnu speaking to me. Or maybe it was my subconcious freeing itself from the NM shackles. The thing is, you can't assume anything about my beliefs, and shouldn't. (And nor should I, or anybody, about yours or anybody else's)."
"Your recent post about how your baby was saved by a miracle and your mother was stopped by snow was an act of God - that's also inappropriate. Many of our members would be believe your baby was saved by a combination of luck and good medical care, and the snow storm was just natural weather patterns."
Okay Danu what about the statement you said The thing is, you can't assume anything about my beliefs, and shouldn't. (And nor should I, or anybody, about yours or anybody else's)."
Do you see the contradiction? There is one set of rules for her, and a completely different set for others. What does that sound like to you? What is the definition of Narcissistic?
Below are the last two e-mails I sent to Danu awhile back (before Light took over to do her dirty work).
I know your job is very difficult overseeing the forum, but you must be fair. By your own admittance in an e-mail you sent me, the Code of Conduct, which I have read more than once, “obviously wasn’t clear enough.” I am very confussed. There are posts that have more "Christian talk" in them than the posts that I have written (excluding the first one that I had scripture in :) ). The ones that I said Creator, act of God, and most recent the mention of Son are deleted.
I did not put anyone’s religion down or call a person names as you mention in your Code of Conduct. You need to write that, no religious/spiritual expression of any kind will be allowed, and give examples (i.e. don’t give credit or reference to God, don’t mention the power of God, or the act of God, don’t mention any form of Him, Creator, Son, Holy Father, Heavenly Father, Jesus, Holy Spirit, Ala, Budda etc., no Christian expressions like Sister in Christ, no scripture ref or quotes. Error on the side of giving too many examples, so that there will be no more hurt feelings on both sides. Then to be fair you need to say the same about other religions/spiritual groups, no Universe is speaking to you, no Mother Nature, Earth Mother, kindred spirits, soul sisters. Looking forward to seeing your revised Code of Conduct.
(another separate e-mail)
Danu I do enjoy the forum and have benefited greatly from it, but it needs to be fair and everyone should be treated with the equal amount of respect regardless if you agree with them or not. You say that you want this forum to be a "safe" and an "open" forum, but open and safe for whom? It appears that it is open to bash God and his people, to use God's name in vain is allowed-those posts are not deleted. Where as the mere mention of "under the Son" is deleted.
This is an urgent matter and must be addressed NOW!
Something you said in a past e-mail really hurt me and I have been holding back in fear that you will get mad and ban me from the forum, but my God tells me to fear not, so here goes:
My daughter IS a miracle and no human can ever explain that one away. Nobody except my husband and I saw the huge pool of blood I woke up to that morning. My own life was at risk. The doctor could not even explain HOW a heartbeat was still possible with all the blood loss I had. He said; women have miscarried with far less blood loss than I. The doctor had a problem with accepting the miracle that was happening right in front of his face, so he offered his opinion of the 1% more thing. He also could not explain how the separation had healed without a noticeable trace. There was no medical intervention, just me on complete bed rest. For someone to say that my DD (dear daughter) being saved was due to; “a combination of luck and good medical care, medical phenomenon etc.," (is her opinion) I am not hurt by others opinions. As for “good medical care” there was none, our doctor told us there was “nothing medically that any doctor could do.” To say that merely because you don’t agree with my answer to MY situation thus deeming it inappropriate is wrong, sorry but it is. What if I said her guardian angel was watching over her that day? You KNOW that would have been accepted and thus appropriate. Yet what if there was someone who didn’t believe in angels?
The snowstorm that prevented my NM’s (narcissistic mother's) plane from taking off, if I said “Mother Nature” prevented my NM’s plane from taking off THAT would have been accepted, and thus appropriate but an act of God is not?
Why is my opinion, especially on MY two experiences, less respected than others?
Why is it that I‘m NOT entitled to share my knowledge/opinion of what happened to MY body?
This was MY experience as I see it. Just the way others have their experiences and see it the way they think is right.
On your personal experience about I Sing, I cannot give you feedback (even though you admitted you didn’t know where it was coming from and it sounded like there was a question seeking an answer) on a situation you experienced, BUT you can tell me that how I experienced mine was "wrong/inappropriate" and not aloud on your forum.
How is this not censorship AND discrimination?
To say that my opinions/beliefs/answers/feelings/knowledge on MY own situations are inappropriate – feels like something my NM has done to me my entire life!
Again, you need to update your Code of Conduct, today, right now, so that it is clear just what will be allowed on this "open and safe" forum.
Danu has been asked several times from me, and from others that held a high position in her forum to update her Code of Conduct months ago before I even came to the forum and she refuses. From what others have told me Danu is justifying her actions and is not strong, humble, or honest enough to admit that she really did something wrong, which tells me and should tell you about her character. I pray that some day she will be willing to make this situation right between us. I have the faith about the size of a mustard seed that she will do right by me, and by others who are now in her forum and the future members that are mislead to join her unsafe forum, but I know with God all things are possible, she just has to be willing to let the Holy Spirit convict her on what she has done wrong. Like my narcissistic mother that was once in my life, I will always pray for her and Danu's salvation, but that is another topic entirely.
What do you think about the e-mails and Gaslighting that has taken place--do you see the Gaslighting in these e-mail accusations?
Although it seems like Danu's and my relationship was always adversarial, let me assure you it was notalways that way. She is very well educated on all thing NM. She put a great website together which educates and informs about narcissism, very high praises for that and I will NEVER take that away from her ever. The forum is a great idea and I found much support from her as well as the other members. In fact Danu, and the great women of the forum encouraged me by saying that I was a great writer, which was something I never entertained because I did and still do have trouble in that area. She said that it was both her personal and professional opinion because she has taught writing to others. She validated the things & feelings I experienced with being a DONM. I trusted her so very much and when the attacks started to come I was so caught off guard. Because I wouldn't do as she demanded and stop mentioning God or any form of Him, she choose me as her personal moving target and scapegoat.
As with all true narcissists, their victims are left feeling like they did something wrong and that they are all alone. Praise God for the beautiful ladies from the forum who have validated what I have experienced is in fact "Classical Gaslighting, and horrible. " Not all these ladies are from the same religious background as myself. It is not just a religious thing, like Danu and Light are trying to make it out to be.
I thought about not posting these examples of persecution, discrimination, censorship, and Classical Gaslighting. You know how the enemy comes to bring doubts in your mind, no one will believe you, no good will come of this, etc. But I am reminded that sin should be brought out into the light. As a child I spent years covering up someone else's sin that he did against me. I was made to feel that I was wrong for exposing the truth, well not this time! That wicked spell only works once! It is not my job to make anyone believe the truth. All I need to do is present the truth and let others judge for themselves. It is just my job to pull back the curtain to reveal the Wicked Witch of Narcissism. I believe we have discovered a new form of narcissist, which is far harder to detect then the malignant narcissist. This is the Narcissist in Sheep's Clothing.