Raising An Amazing Generation

I watched a few episodes called, Raising An Amazing Generation, and what I saw impressed me. Carol demonstrates that our children are unique individuals w/ their own personality, thinking processes and learning styles which must be considered when raising children. Raising Children requires much more than simply understanding the basic principles of Behavior Modification (classical & operant conditioning) . Books that have a one style fits all approach may not be the best resource/fit for your child/ren.

I have been impressed w/ CK's teachings,
http://www.insp.com/raising-an-amazing-generation/episodes/

http://www.insp.com/raising-an-amazing-generation/episodes/

http://www.insp.com/raising-an-amazing-generation/resources/

I saw the shows that went over the Art of Discipline and How Is Your Child Wired to Learn? I am thinking about ordering them,
http://www.insp.com/raising-an-amazing-generation/shop/

Personality Plus for Parents, also looks like a interesting book.
http://classervices.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/page1.html

Has anyone else read these books?

Here is another thread discussing good parenting books.

Comparing Carol Ardizzone and Ted Tripp's very different viewpoints on modifying a child's behavior & raising an amazing child w/a great heart, Carol definitely keeps the heart of a child in mind and w/Ted's I am left wondering, Where is the Love and Grace in his approach? His heart seems calloused to me in regards to physical discipline/punishment (spanking).

At this point in my life, I am neither totally advocating spanking, nor am I completely against it. After using spanking/swatting I ask myself, is my DD better for it, is our family, because I never feel good after it which is always a signal to self NOT to do it. My H and I have spanked our D. It usually was the last resort. We do it very infrequently (less than once a month, sometimes once every two months, as time goes by it is less and less), the magnitude & duration of the spanking is very controlled, no more than one for each year of her life, 3 years old = 3 spankings, and they are a swat not a "beating or whipping". Still the few times I have spanked my child she has recovered and I am emotionally and psychologically messed up for days due to the abuse I suffered from the Momster in my childhood. Surely there is a better way.

The more I realize what it takes to keep spanking as a very controlled discipline/punishment and if we are being honest most of our population lack this amount of accountability, introspection, and control I realize that it is extremely dangerous to recommend spanking to the general public. It is opening Pandora's box to child abuse. If there is any chance what-so-ever that discipline can turn into abuse (even on a very small scale), then as my H & I say, it is better to be too safe than too sorry, and not resort to spanking. A great alternative to spanking is to send a child to his/her room, or even the bathroom until s/he can calm down and is ready to listen and do what was asked (ie, clean up toys). Losing a reward should be the consequence of bad behavior.

Because of so many people still using physical punishment (there appears to be a revival of 'the old ways'), let us assume these people are not narcissists. Parents with control over their impulses, a healthy conscience, the ability to stay in the moment without losing themselves in the past...in other words, people who consciously choose to discipline a child without humiliating or crushing their spirits. With people like this, perhaps they cannot imagine what a dangerous door they are opening by suggesting physical punishment is acceptable? Maybe they can't even imagine that giving a N an inch takes a mile out of a powerless child's hide? For that reason, my stance is No Spanking. It's so easy for a slap to escalate to abuse. Ns can justify anything. ~CZ

We've been discussing parenting on another thread that started out asking member's about Shepherding a Child's Heart by Ted Tripp and main topics: physical discipline and the negative impact this may have on a developing child's psyche. I have not read Mr. Tripp's book and we're relying on excerpted comments from other sites. However, these quoted comments from Mr. Tripp are very revealing in identifying a very dangerous person.

Here are two reviews I found on line,

Reviewed by Sarah (Chicago), June 17, 2010

A few things I have to ask...how many of you actually grew up with parents that read books like this one? How do you feel about your parents know? Do you have children of your own and if so do you look at your parents as a good example? - My parents read a book like this as I was growing up, following it like a bible. I grew up a very servant like child, always afraid around every corner. Always looking for my parents acceptance. I got spankings when I was bad. - The part that terrifies me the most about parents that take "spanking" so seriously is when I think about myself so worried out of my mind when I was about to get a spanking. It actually still gives me horrible stomach aches if I think about it long enough and I am a grown women. I was told the very thing this book teaches "we are doing this because God loves you and he wants you to obey". Really??? I was a perfect child out of fear. I didn't do bad things because I was so scared. Is that any way for a child to live? In fear? Yes we should definitely fear the Lord, but we obey him because we love him! Not because we are afraid he is going to physically hurt us!! I am sorry but you really have to truly think about these things and ask other people that were maybe brought up this before you start doing this to your own children.

Reviewed by J H (Virginia), June 07, 2008

This book changed my life too, it nearly destroyed my family. As a naive new parent, I went to a seminar by Tripp. I desperately wanted to do things right, to parent Biblically. My spouse and I read and reread the book and faithfully followed the principles; so for the next 2 years we could not understand why our relationship with our son was deteriorating. Instead of learning to obey, he was learning to lie so he wouldn't get caught. He did not respect us, he feared us. We cried out to God in prayer asking what we were doing wrong, there was no fruit in our family and we were miserable. I went back to the rod verses that Tripp quotes as the basis for spanking and I was led to study deeper. Instead of taking them at face value (which does seem to indicate that you should punish children by beating them with a weapon), I did word studies on each word in Hebrew. I consulted with a rabbi to confirm what I was learning. I was shocked to find that orthodox Jews, who still follow the Law in its entirety and are careful to obey Old Testament precepts literally, do not understand those verses to mean that a parent should hit children with a rod. Hebrew understanding is much different. Our family is also very different now. We have had a complete paradigm shift on what Christian discipline is. Our son is in therapy working out the attachment issues he suffered and our family is fruitful now, in many ways, as God has blessed us with 2 more. I enjoy parenting now that I'm not looking for "willful disobedience" around every corner. If I were to sum it up I'd say that Tripp makes sense on addressing your child's heart, but he believes the way to do that is by using behaviorism, not discipleship. Please don't be as naive as I was, my family suffered so much. Dig deeper, study Scripture in the original language, strive to understand at more than just face value. Try Heartfelt Discipline by Clay Clarkson instead or even better, Biblical Parenting by Crystal Lutton.

http://family.christianbook.com/shepherding-childs-heart-pack-2-volumes/tedd-tripp/pd/4221?item_code=WW&netp_id=289054&event=ESRCN&show_all_cr=1#customer_reviews

Tripp He is what I refer to as a Counterfeit Christian who is committing & advocating spiritual abuse as well as physical, psychological, verbal & emotional abuse.

If anyone's spiritual leaders, friends, or family are recommending this book, please, please, please Trust your WoNderful Intuition when Tripp's statements/viewpoints/recommendations do not sit well in your spirit. This book from hell is an Excuse for Abuse. His comments are so very triggering and I had to stop reading because my heart is breaking at the thought of desperate parents taking this abusive man's advice and mistakingly thinking that they are doing right by their children).

I wonder what reason your leader chose this particular christian parenting book? There are a bunch out there, why this one? ~RB

I am wondering the same thing. I am not exaggerating when I say that all the Momster would have needed was to read this 101 ways to Beat your child until s/he is "sweet" and I would not be alive today. When I read these few quotes I am not getting the feeling of a loving adult who values children, but a evil slave master who wants to beat his servants into submission.

I am praying that God fills you w/Supernatural courage to open dialogue w/the other parents in your community, so that these parents w/good intentions don't get brainwashed into slaughtering the souls of their children. If I ever needed a reason to give up spanking reading this toxic evil crap would be it.

I want to thank everyone who is adding great resources for those of us who were born into the KoN who want to end the Legacy of Abuse. I was the kid with the story no one would believe. BUT by the GRACE & LOVE of God, my life could have had a variety of different alternative very tragic endings (suicide, addict, permanent psychiatric resident, killing the Monster who hurt my sister and myself, and becoming a Momster to my child and repeating what was done to me). Christ taught me what Authentic Love was all about. His love is amazing. There is truth and there is grace. The Original Counterfeit (devil) knows how to twist God's words to serve his evil agenda and this is who I believe is inspiring Mr. Tripps book. What happens to a child who never experiences Authentic Love? Mr. Tripp's book is a recipe for Creating Criminals instead of Compassionate People.

I heard this song on the radio yesterday and it touched my heart. All a child wants is to know that s/he is loved just for being who they are, Just Love Me For Me.

My DD was not quite 3 yrs old when she asked me, Mommy why do you love me? My intial response was to list all her great attributes & talents, thoughtfulness, kind heart, beautiful smile, her great hugs, compassion for others, etc -- but stopped and said, I love you just for who you are, you are Emma, and I love you. I love you for being you. I love you just for being Emma. Children need to know that they are loved just for who they are, and do not have to be perfect to earn love. They have intrinsic value. My H & I are open w/our DD. We explain to her that there are behaviors we like (thoughtfulness, kindness, sharing, etc.) and behaviors we don't like (selfishness, tantrums, defiant, etc), but we always love her. Her rewards & privileges are based on her behavior, but our love for her is not -- It is unconditional. It is not something she has to earn and is not something that will be taken away.

Just because something is widely accepted does not make it right. Do you know where the Rule of Thumb originated from? I learned in my Woman Studies that the term originally referred to a law that limited the maximum thickness of a stick with which it was permissible for a man to beat his wife & children.

What are we teaching our children when we physically reprimand them? If you do not do as I want it is okay for me to physically punish you. I do not want my D to believe that it is okay for others to physically hurt her if she disagrees with them. I also do not want to go to the other extreme as my Nsib has done w/her youngest and not discipline thus creating a spoiled brat that does not realize that her choices have consequences.

So much of what Tripp says disgusts me. Spanking a 8 month old, excessive amount of spanking, 20, 50, 100 times (sounds like someone is enjoying what he is doing), and the statement that crushed me was,
p.152 If the child is angry about being whipped, then “the discipline session is not over” and Tripp says to whip them some more until they are “sweet”. -- what does this remind you of? Sounds like Learned Helplessness. The child doesn't even have the freedom to be angry about being the physical pain s/he is experiencing. Are children suppose to endure the physical pain until they no longer show any resistance to it? Don't be angry, don't be upset, don't cry, don't make a sound, just smile and be "sweet" while I am causing you physical & emotional pain. I would also like to see how his 8 month old turned out.

If I only knew then what I know now. . .

We all have said, hindsight is 20/20, so true! This got me thinking, what if CZ purchased a Time Machine from all the money earned from the future sold WoN coffee mugs and T-shirts,
and each of us separately got to take a trip back in time, When and where would you go? How far back you go depends on you. You get to pick the time and place to talk to your former self.

How old would you be?
What would you be wearing and What would you be doing?
Do you see yourself? What is the first feeling you experience when you see her?

If we could Time Travel back to our previous self what information would we share with her?
What wisdom about Self and others would you like to share with her?
If only you knew Then what you know Now -- what would you say to her?
What is the most important thing you would like to share with her?
What is the most important thing she needs to hear from you?

PS. I watched the movie, The Time Traveler's Wife last night. I enjoyed it.

Here is the follow up link,

http://www.webofnarcissism.com/forums/index.php/topic,7584.0.html

Why do they keep on attacking?

But why when all I do is offer love, forgiveness, understanding, etc does s/he continue to disrespect, not appreciate, devalue, attack and hurt me? How come they can or will not reciprocate what has been given to them?

Simple. . . it is in his/her nature. It is what toxic people do, they attack, because they enjoy it because it is in their nature.

Have you heard about the story, The Scorpion and the Frog or The Scorpion & the Fox?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu44zAcqnXg&NR=1

The only way to out fox a scorpion is to have NO CONTACT with it.

When I googled this story about the Scorpion I noticed there were different versions of the same story all ending the same way. While the Scorpion stayed the same, its targets, the one it attacked varied from a frog/toad, turtle/tortoise, fox and swan. It reminded me of WoN that while we have individual differences are attackers remain the same, they attack because it is their nature.

I also came across the story of The Scorpion and the Swan and found this very interesting blog,

which confirmed to me that it is not only the projected lies that toxic people tell us, but even more importantly it is the lies we project onto the toxic person. Yikes! It is about the lies we tell our Self about the toxic person and about ourself that we are strong enough to handle the deadly sting of the Scorpion.

There was a Swan at the edge of a river and a scorpion approached asking the swan if she would kindly give him a ride to the other side of the river on her back. The swan said "no, you are a scorpion, you will sting me and I will die." The scorpion assured the swan that he wouldn't do that, all he wanted was a ride to the other side and he promised she was safe with him. So the swan gave in and allowed the scorpion to climb upon her back. She swan to the other side and just before reaching the shore the scorpion stung her and jumped to safety. As the swan was sinking, slowly dying from the poisons she asked the scorpion why he broke his promise and stung her. The scorpion said "I'm a scorpion, that is what I do."

Ernie asked me why I believed that the swan allowed the scorpion on her back. I said it was because she was denying her instincts. He said it went deeper than that. So I asked Ernie to explain. He said the swan was projecting her swan like qualities upon the scorpion.

There is that word "projection" again. When we come to understand narcissism we find that narcissists are masters at projection. They take the dark qualities within themselves and project them onto those who love them. But we don't often think about our own projections. We just as easily project our goodness upon the narcissist in our lives and then we fall in love with the good qualities in ourselves projected upon the other. We see the narcissist (scorpion) as someone who is empathetic, caring, loving, concerned, compassionate and honest, because this is who we are. The narcissist gladly owns our projections and gives us his dirt. We get accused of being the very thing we eventually come to see in him.

I remember being accused of being selfish, greedy, uncommitted, angry, bi-polar and a host of other things that left me questioning whether or not this was really true. The most difficult thing was that he really seemed to believe it. He believed he was the pure one and I was the one poisoning his reality with my impurities. But once the veil was lifted and I could see through the narcissistic Web of Illusion I could see that who he accused me of being was never the truth about me.

One thing I notice with many of my clients is that they just can't believe the narcissist in thier lives was capable of doing the things he/she did. It is so out of character from the person they believed him or her to be. The ending of the relationship is almost always traumatic because the "swan" learns she has been deceived. She trusted the narcissist and believed in him and is shocked at his sudden change in behavior. She is shocked that he has no feeling about her sinking and drowning and just hops off as if nothing ever happened. She gave him her life! She believed him when he said he would never sting her. And now he laughs in the face of her pain and disbelief. "Stupid swan!" He says as he hops off! "I can always count on their goodness to get what I want."

If I were to imagine the rest of the story I would say the swan sunk down to the bottom of the river only to find the bodies of all those beautiful swans that came before her. She was not the first, nor would she be the last. Because it is the nature of the scorpion to sting.

http://www.narcissismfree.com/swan-and-scorpion.php

More detail on the Swan and Scorpion can be found at the link above.

Wait a minute folks there is more to this story is not over yet! The Scorpion has a hard thick out shell and aside from his belly full of poison which supplies his deadly tail he is completely hallow inside which gives him the ability to remain at the very surface rather than to sink to the depths of devastation like the beautiful swan who is a very solid creature. What the Scorpion fails to realize is that the beautiful swan while covered in complete darkness has the spirit of the Phoenix and will rise born again and even stronger than before because now she has the ability to soar. Meanwhile the Scorpion filled w/deadly toxins is being destroyed from within. He is devolving and deconstructing during each attack until he implodes and self-destructs because he had no substance to keep him afloat and he has no spirit to be born again. Any decaying remains of his life becomes food for the scum of the Earth. His life becomes utter waste while the majestic swan soars to new heights where the sky is her only limit.

Now for another interesting story which I can really relate to which is analogous to why I escaped the KoN. The story is called, The Farmer and the Viper. Have you heard of it?

"The Farmer and the Viper" is a fable often attributed to Aesop. Of ancient origin, it appears in several West African and European sources as well.^[1][2] The story concerns a farmer who finds a viper freezing in the snow. He takes pity on it and picks it up and places it within his coat. The viper, revived by the warmth, bites the farmer. The farmer cries out that he should have seen it coming.

In some versions, the farmer brings the viper home and his children go to pet it. The viper gets ready to bite the children when the farmer cuts off the viper's head.

The moral is that "kindness is wasted on evil".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Farmer_and_the_Viper

I relate to the Farmer because I thought I was strong enough to handle the attacks of the Viper/Momster -- however when I realized the harm that having a Viper in the house was to my child I had no problem Letting Go of the dangerous Viper. I noticed ambient abuse towards my child from the Momster regarding "forgetting" about her birthday gifts when she gave all the other grandchildren gifts. If the Momster simply "forgot" then she would remedy the situation which she never did and in fact made it worse by blaming me for not allowing her to visit more w/my D. Nothing but lies to support her evil behavior. This attack against me and my D is undetectable by many people, but those who have Nparents know how they do the "Set-Up". They do something so cunning, sneaky insidious & subtle that when we call them on it, we look like we are just being "too sensitive or taking things the wrong way" I decided I was not going to let the Viper do a more overt and obvious attack against us, in addition to the Last Straw Moment, My H and I decided time to prune these toxic roots and start a healthy family tree free from the KoN.

Change your words Change your life

I wonder if I have been replaced yet?

Remember, you are an amazing individual who has intrinsic value, thus your uniqueness can not be replaced, he can only find a new source to deceive. He will never find another you, only another source. And you are nobody's source!

Tonight Upsi reminded me of one of the greatest lessons I learned from one of my Therapists/Life Coaches that changed my life because it empowered & grounded me and balanced my life. From that moment I went from just living life to actually enjoying it.

I great short fast read book that was required reading is Hung by the Tongue. If you implement the principles that it teaches it will forever change your life. No joke it is that great! It is required reading for CEO's of many huge big businesses.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ie=UTF8&keywords=hung+by+the+tongue&tag=googhydr-20&index=stripbooks&hvadid=1144008941&ref=pd_sl_d1mqr9rik_b

Quote

We can't break up with our mothers, we can't end the relationship~upsi

I use to feel the same way. Then my T told me what I will share with you, Who says you can not break up or divorce your toxic mother, Who says she must stay in your life? There was a great NY Times article on Divorcing One's Parent, but it is no longer on the internet. Many people choose to do this when they realize that a relationship w/a NM means constant & consistent disappointment and pain at some level or another. I am not in any way telling you or Upsi to go NC that is your choice, but also know that it is also your choice to remain in contact. I guess what I am awkwardly trying to say, the actual words we choose send a message to Self that we have power (I choose to) or no power (I must, have to, forced to, got to, can't, have no other choice etc.) These are words my T told me to remove from my vocabulary for the next 30 days and see what happens. using words that say I have no power over my life. I could only use the phrase, I choose to. . . . Of course I asked her, well there are things we all have to do and she replied, like what? I have to pay rent. Why? Well, I can't not pay. Why Not? I will lose my apartment, have to find another place, ruin my credit, etc. So you choose to pay your rent because you do not like the alternative consequence of not paying the rent, but the choice is still up to you. Choose the behavior choose the accompanying consequence (this of course is the short-version, IRL it took a bit longer for me to fully accept what my T was saying to me ). Even when the choices we have are pretty terrible as in choosing a Toxic Mother or having No Mother, for me it meant No parents, none at all, because I had already choose to go NC w/Monster Dad years ago. So both choices are terrible. Of course my choice would be to have a loving imperfect parent that could value at some level having a D that loves her, and she could love me in return, but that is not reality. Wish it was, but it is not. That is only an illusion. What I had to do first was to grieve the dream/the goal/the illusion that someday in some small way my life would have true meaning to my NM other than a source of NS. This third choice is not ever going to be available to me no matter how hard I tried, cried, and prayed. So I have two choices available to me and at the end of this month I will be celebrating my choice's First Anniversary of NC. I do agree w/Gavin de Becker author of The Gift of Fear, that if I never realized it was my choice to stay in a relationship w/a N person than I would never realize that I had the power to choose to leave it. When you choose NC whether it is temp. or permanent you say to the N , but most importantly you say to yourself that The Pain Stops Here & Now. By Pain it not only limited to heart ache & physical discomfort; it also includes, Stress, Anxiety, Depression, Confusion, Learned Helplessness, Anger, Fear, Guilt, etc. and everything that goes all with these. NC means No More New Pain to be added to your life from the N where to me LC, which I have done since my senior year in HS, means that I am taking a Time Out from the Pain, but the Pain always resumes w/contact (ie new attacks = new pain). NC does not have to be something you set in stone. You can do it for a year, or 6 months, and at the end ask yourself:

Have I had enough time to heal all the old pain before I add some new pain on top of the old? Just because the pain is not present does not mean it is completely healed. Absent of pain does not mean healing necessarily, it could mean that the person that triggers the pain (the toxic person) is not present to elicit it.

Do I want to resume contact = resume attacks = resume pain or renew another year of NC to continue to work on healing the old pain? or

If the old pain has healed do I want to deal with new pain by resuming contact?

Resume Contact or have another year of NC?

Can you guess which one I am going to choose?

Last year I was at the Proverbial Cross Roads. There are two roads before me. The familiar one that behind me shows abuse in my past, beside me shows abuse in my present, and down the road leads me to more abuse waiting to attack me, or there is the unfamiliar road that offers Freedom from abuse and a Journey to Healing. This road I hear provides an Escape from the Kingdom of Narcissism (the KoN) & abuse to a Whole New World of Understanding, Validation & Love, the Land of Love Now that I have had my first year of NC (I actually did NC for a year once before in my life) continuing another year of NC is not scary and I have peace about it.
http://www.webofnarcissism.com/forums/index.php/topic,6961.msg21582.html#msg21582

Quote

Sometimes I just want to run away! ~ Seekingme

Oh do I remember this feeling. This is a choice available to you. When I left the KoN it started off with escaping the Pain, but somewhere along the Journey it became about. . . . letting go and seeking me.
I think you might like this thread.
Metaphorically speaking, What kind of shoes are you wearing right now?
http://www.webofnarcissism.com/forums/index.php/topic,7070.0.html

book that is very inexpensive, a very quick read and life changing for me was
Hung by the Tongue
http://www.amazon.com/Hung-Tongue-What-You-Say/dp/0965243303/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1290110047&sr=1-1

Check out the reviews,
"Martin shows that success and defeat is born in the mind. We as humans tend to speak what we believe. Martin shows that what we speak can bring on failure or victory."

Even from a critic, " I struggled to read the book fully since I do not believe in God and this book was all from the perspective of a God-fearing soul. But this offered some tremendous advice - the power of words that leave our mouth. In fact, one example stood out - if one is arrested in the US, the cops "recite" some sentences. Almost always that starts with "You have the right to remain SILENT. Anything you say may be used against you in the court of law....". That was a big eye-opener! As they say in management - "When in deep s**t, keep your mouth shut"! Watch what you say! Read this book! And if you are god-fearing, you will reap much more postives from this book."

Before I knew there was a word for Projected Lies, I read this book. It taught me how to deal & heal from Projected Lies from the KoN and to be a Friend to Self. Even if you don't share the Spiritual Perspective, the Principles & Precepts are Powerful. It will help to empower Self and protect self from being one's own worst enemy.

Hung by the Tongue is worth more than its weight in gold!

Jealousy. . . Friend or Foe?

Great info on the difference between Envy and Jealousy.

http://www.webofnarcissism.com/forums/index.php/topic,7429.msg27521.html#msg27521

"Envy-prone people who experience goodness in another person feel the goodness to be painfully insufficient and resent both their own dependency upon the other and the other's control over the goodness. Envy is defined as hatred directed toward good objects. Compared to 'regular' hatred, in which the good object is protected [and] the bad object is attacked, in hatred with primitive envy another's goodness is experienced as a threat to the person's own grandiosity or idealized self-experience,and the goodness is destroyed. In other words, by attacking the good object, the person is trying to ward off feelings of pain, vulnerability, dependency, and defectiveness that are evoked by recognizing the threatening goodness in another person. Envy can destroy the possibility for hope and diminish capacity for enjoyment." ~Elsa Ronningstam, Understanding and Identifying the Narcissistic Personality

She also writes: "Malicious envy, which is followed by pain and feelings of inferiority, involves a wish to eliminate or destroy what one is not able to possess and destructive efforts can even be directed toward the other person's happiness, future accomplishments, and relationships."

In Drew Pinsky's book, The Mirror Effect, he writes: "In psychological terms, there is an important difference between envy and jealousy. Jealousy can be a mobilizing force: I want what you have and I'm going to figure out how to get it. Envy, on the other hand, involves direct aggression."

Let me repeat that last bit: "Envy, on the other hand, involves direct aggression: I want what you have, and it makes me feel bad. so I'm going to take it from you, or at least knock you down to my size. Envy, thus, is far more toxic than simple jealousy." ~Drew Pinsky, the Mirror Effect, page 160

I use to hate the Momster who tried to destroy my life, but now I pity her. Hate takes a tremendous amount of life energy to invest into someone who does not love you as Ns are simple not worth it. I would rather invest my energy into love because it yields greater returns. Hate just leaves one bankrupt if you over invest into it for an extended amount of time. It serves a purpose to protect you while you are in the KoN and motivate you to leave it. After you have discovered your LOL hate no longer has a purpose.

Ns are envious & jealous creatures. Ns are not jealous of everyone, only those who threaten their false Counterfeit image who they would like to be like, who they envy, thus their jealousy and attacks are personal. The Momster is jealous of a lot of people that is why she hurts many people, but there are those whom she is not jealous of and does not attack once again demonstrating that the attacks from Ns are personal. I know there are people who want to believe that these attacks are not personal, that the poor pathological Ns can not help themselves, they are emotionally retarded and we should have empathy for them. They are not cognitively retarded they are emotionally retard and the difference is choice and control. They do have a choice to attack or not and they precisely choose when and whom to attack, thus it is very personal.

http://www.webofnarcissism.com/forums/index.php/topic,7141.msg24410.html#msg24410

Many Ns thrive off of pathological competitiveness. When they feel that they can not compete & conquer then the resentment and contempt towards us take over. This is why if you take a N boss out on the golf course you have got to let him win, otherwise. . . you lose your job, account, promotion, etc.

Jealousy is to Envy as Resent is to Contempt.

What do you suppose fuels Jealousy and Envy What makes a N want the possessions &/or qualities of others?

Hint: it is found in the last Commandment, as in Thou Shall Not . . .
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/covet

"To covet is to have the strong desire for the possession of others' specific personal properties or relationships, going beyond simply admiring someone Else's possessions or thinking "I'd like to have one of those." Coveting includes envy - resenting the fact that others have what you don't."
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_does_the_Bible_mean_by_'thou_shall_not_covet_thy_neighbour's_wife'

I don't see Jealousy as a healthy trait or desire because it can and often does lead to Envy. Jealousy and Envy are about control and wanting to posses what someone Else has (i.e., covet) and something that is or perceived asunobtainable to Self. It is about a longing for something they can not achieve on their own. It is about a State of Neediness which Ns severely detest, because it opens them up to the potential of being rejected which is their greatest fear, aka Fear of Abandonment. Their motto is, Discard or be Discarded. They are on constant look out for back-up supply so that they never run out. As soon as the N experiences Jealousy the Devaluing Process/Stage begins, because you can not be jealous of someone who you don't value. The onset of the Devaluing indicates a better source has been found because they would never devalue someone whom they truly feel would abandon them and they can only be abandoned if they don't have a replacement source already lined up. For normal people, abandonment is person specific, in that someone of extreme importance (Spouse/Parent/Close Friend) has to reject us to feel abandoned. However, for a N they only feel abandoned if they run out of back-up Sources/Supply. This is the reason they are not heartbroken or devastated after a relationship ends and can walk away like nothing ever happened.

When I see someone who has a talent/skill that I have not acquired and highly value I am inspired by them and I am motivated to learn more to improve my abilities. I admire and appreciate the talents of others. Jealousy leads to devaluing and degrading the skills of others. Ns lack the ability to admire others because that would mean they would have to be humble & comfortable with the reality of someone else being better than them at a particular thing. Being better means having more power in the mind of a N and more power means more control. Thus, Ns are grandiose because they can not give up that sense of control & power over others.

When we are jealous of others are we not devaluing ourselves and the taking for granted the blessings we have in our own lives?

For me it is very important to identify things helpful (good) or hurtful (bad) because that is the only way I was able to accept reality about the Momster, the NFOO and escape the KoN.

Quote

Lots of times we 'are' reacting to unconscious, unclaimed feelings and we don't even know it!~CZ

Totally get that 100%.
I understand the tendency to label something bad can lead some to avoidance where I look for the evidence. I look at emotions/desires as messengers. Some are friendly and some are not, but I listen to what they have to say. I don't know if I would consider Jealousy as a friend and ask her to sit down to tea (do appreciate the concept of not denying her existence), but I would definitely hear what she has to say to me and see if there is any validity. To me I have not found Jealousy to be very friendly, reliable, trustworthy, respectful, nor are her intentions honorable because she often, or usually lies. For example Jealousy says, Did you see that physically fit woman, look how great she looks, remember when you use to look that great? No that's right because when you where physically fit you never thought you looked great, too bad you didn't know then what you know now, you never felt beautiful, well now it's too late, that trained left the station and its going to take along time to come back. Yes, Jealousy likes to point out what you value and that you don't have it and makes you deal w/the loss. Jealousy then asks, Do you want to play my favorite game called Comparison? And when Jealousy is around I have been known to play her game and I use to lose every time. Over the years I have learned how to beat Jealousy at her own game some of the times. What I have learned is best not to play w/her because she cheats too! She reminds me what our society deems as Attractive & Sexy and I don't measure up, too short. Then she asks do you want to take another turn? Sure, my butts too big, that part too, and I hear Jealousy cheering me on, You're on a roll keep going! and I do until Jealousy holds all the cards and just when I think Game Over I have nothing more to lose, Jealousy says. . . let me introduce my Big Sister to ya, LettingGo meet Envy.
Then Jealousy whispers in my ear, oh by the way your H has that look in his eye tonight and wants to be romantic, Doesn't he know that you are hanging out w/us tonight? Just tell him you have a headache.

Yes, I know Jealousy all to well. I know the games she likes to play with me and how she cheats and lies to win. I do not like her, Sam I am. I do not like her here nor there, I do not like her any where. However, I do like her very distant cousin called Inspire who introduces me to Encourage, Desire, and Motivation which says take a dance class and have amazing sex w/your H tonight. Both Jealousy and Inspire bring the same message, but Jealousy's intentions are not Authentic, they are Counterfeit and Toxic. Jealousy offers destruction where Inspire offers improvement through empowerment.

It's nice to know that Jealousy even visits CZ and I know that even though you offer her some tea, you don't give her the guest bedroom. Wouldn't it be great if we could put arsenic in Jealousy's tea? Jealousy will not allow you to fully enjoy your Sis's summer peaches, but will remain quite and not say anything to Sis where as Envy will say to your Sis, last years crop was much sweeter. CZ I hope I can meet you IRL some day and we can have some delicious tea and fresh summer peach pie or cobbler ala mode of course!

Jealousy and Envy I know these b*tches. The Momster introduced them to me and they were my extended family members in the KoN. When they want to come for a visit I send them packing. Jealousy is known to sneak in from time to time. It is great when you have a best friend who can help you be on the look out for Jealousy and can help kick her to the curve.

CZ perhaps you and I know a different Jealousy or maybe I am not as far along this Healing Journey as you are so I can not appreciate her. To me she has been nothing but mean.

Counterfeit Love vs. Authentic Love

Counterfeit Love vs. Authentic Love

How do you tell the difference so that you can avoid being N-chanted by another insidious N?

My Best Friend was the first person in my life who showed me what Authentic Love was all about, so I married him.
What distinguishes him from the Counterfeits I N-countered in my life, those that I lived w/in the KON, those that I became friends with and those I dated?

The two main traits/characteristics that Ns lack are Empathy and Remorse, so Authentic Love would definitelyincluded these very essential ingredients. What else can we add to the list?

The very first thing that comes to mind when I think about my Best Friend is he has a quality that the others lack, which is Honor. How does one describe Honor?

—Synonyms
1. probity, uprightness. Honor, honesty, integrity, sincerity refer to the highest moral principles and the absence of deceit or fraud. Honor denotes a fine sense of, and a strict conformity to, what is considered morally right or due: a high sense of honor; on one's honor. Honesty denotes the presence of probity and particularly the absence of deceit or fraud, esp. in business dealings: uncompromising honesty and trustworthiness. Integrity indicates a soundness of moral principle that no power or influence can impair: a man of unquestioned integrity and dependability. Sincerity implies absence of dissimulation or deceit, and a strong adherence to truth: His sincerity was evident in every word. 3. deference, homage; reverence, veneration. Honor, consideration, distinction refer to the regard in which one is held by others. Honor suggests a combination of liking and respect: His colleagues held him in great honor. Consideration suggests honor because of proved worth: a man worthy of the highest consideration. Distinction suggests particular honor because of qualities or accomplishments: She achieved distinction as a violinist at an early age. 5. distinction. 13. esteem, venerate.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/honor

What Distinguishes Counterfeit Love vs. Authentic Love?

Whether or not you have found Authentic Love in your life,

What other characteristics would you say separate Counterfeit Love from Authentic Love?
(If you could put them in bold type that would be great!)

For Great Feedback & Wisdom on this topic go here:

http://www.webofnarcissism.com/forums/index.php/topic,7242.0.html

Closure. . . redefine it to find it!

Do you struggle finding Closure? Is Closure something you are still searching, or reaching for in regards to a certain person or situation?

Is Closure something we need get from someone else, or is it possible that Closure can be achieved in another way?  

Which got me thinking,
Maybe we need to redefine what Closure means to our Self rather than to let others define it for us, and then get stuck w/not being able to fulfill the defined requirements.

What does Closure mean to you?

What do you need to find Closure?

How do you define it for your Self?

As children our families & society teach us their concepts & definitions of Love, Acceptance & Forgiveness,
and Closure as well as other important aspects of life, and this has a tremendous impact on how one views Self in this world. Perhaps Finding Self is about taking a critical look at how we define these aspects of life for Self.

Thanks to my Wonderful Friends that the Lord placed in my life during my Healing Journey, I have recently been enlightened on why I was having difficulty finding Closure w/the Momster and the NFOO.

For me, Closure, the destination of going through all the Stages of the Recovery Process follows the last two Stages of Acceptance & Forgiveness and was contingent upon the Momster having Remorse which would give me Validation that what I experienced, endured, and survived was abuse, it was wrong, and in no way did I cause it, or deserve it. It is about calling a Wrong a Wrong. And I so despirately wanted the Momster to do that, because she was the one who was doing all the wrong, evil things. I was relying on the Momster to bring Closure, which was not going to happen, and would leave my Self feeling incomplete -- unless I redefined Closure for my Self. 


As long as Closure depended on someone else giving me what I needed I would never have it. Let's face it, the one thing toxic pathological people do well is figure what you want or need from them, and then don't give it to you. Never expect others to do for you what you can do for yourself. You will never find personal power if you depend on others to make you strong. Thanks to Susy's thread about NC being the Closure & the Validation to & for Self. Validation, Acceptance, Forgiveness, and Closure are interactive. The constant theme to all of this is that we can not rely, or depend on others to define aspects of our life and most importantly, others can not define our life, they can not define Self. Because if we give our power away to allow someone else to define our life, or even aspects of our life, then we are allowing someone else to control our life. We become a mere spectator to our own life.

We must learn that we are the main character in our own life, and we can not let anyone else write our script. If we have been given a toxic script, because we were born into the KoN (Kingdom of Narcissism), then we need to find Authentic Help from Wise Consultants to rewrite our own Script. We have all been given a Great Helper, a very Skilled Personal Consultant to rewrite our script, and that is the Holy Spirit. 


GOD is our Divine Director, our life a stage, and we each have a choice to see how this is going to be played out. Where we begin does not have to be where we end. 


Read Jeremiah 29:11, if you are not enjoying the fulness of life, trapped in chaos and confusion, things do not have to be this way. Things are not suppose to be this way. However, if nothing changes, then nothing changes. While we do not have the power, nor control to make others change, we do have the power, the control to make a choice to change what sort of people and things remain in our life. 


We can not go into the past, and change the past, but from this moment on we can decide what will remain in our life.


We must objectively critique our scripts, and delete things that are not true to our Character, and are deadly to Self. If Concepts like Marriage, Family, Relationships, Friendship, Love, Career, Religion, etc. play a huge role in our Life Script, then we have to see how each of these interact w/Self. We can not rely on someone else's interpretation of these important Characters in our Life, we need to carefully examine them for our Self. In The End the only one responsible for the way this all Played out is the Main Character, Self.

The following is from my friend Susy, a WoNder/ful Woman

That is all part of the devastating discard. The message is: you are not worth giving closure to. As far as I know, no one gets closure from a N relationship. Closure is for 'normal' relationships when both parties have hearts and empathy.

I love this quote:

"We want closure which is never going to come in a way that we want but we can find closure by No Contact. We want to be heard, want them to know the pain they've caused but they are never going to listen and if they do, they don't hear the words. What we often miss is the beauty of "No Contact." You are finally saying No More. It is your voice without the words but they hear it loud and clear as if you screamed from the top of your lungs - "Go to the Devil." No Contact is your pure and sweet rejection. It is empowering. It is your last word. It is your closure. It is one of the most hurtful narcissistic injuries you could inflict. They have finally come to understand you know just who and what they are. They know the tricks do not work anymore. They know you are no longer prey or a pawn in their game. It is your last word."

"No contact is so essential. Your pride and dignity are riding on it."

From this article:

http://www.thenarcissistandpsychopath.yolasite.com/no-contact.php

How do you define Closure? Is Closure something we need get from someone else, or is Closure a Gift we get from ourselves to ourselves?


At this point in my life Closure is a Gift from GOD. Closure is Freedom from knowing that the past has no power to hold me captive. Closure is Peace from a knowing that all things (the good, the bad, the ugly, and the horrific) are transformed by GOD for my good to bless me, and to bless others through me. That out of the ashes of a painful past rises Unique Divine Purpose. 

Did you do your homework?

When I was a child doing my homework was my way to survive the chaos of the KoN, ironically doing my homework also gave me the ability to escape the KoN.

Did you enjoy doing homework as a child or when you were in College?

Was it something you looked forward to or dreaded, postponed, and procrastinated until the very last moment?

When it came to writing I was a professional procrastinator. I knew exactly how long it would take me to turn out an (A) paper and I waited until the very last minute to get it done. I am not sure why I had such an aversion to writing, I suspect it had a lot to do w/the KoN because since I have left it I can not seem to stop writing and some of my writing is actually connecting w/other people which is an unexpected blessing & joy for me.

In College I gained an appreciation of the Scientific Method.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_are_the_steps_in_the_scientific_method

I especially loved math because it was constant and consistent. There was no arguing, no confusion, no chaos, and no gaslighting like in the KON. Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow 1 + 1 = 2 that never changes. There is a saying in the research world, "Statistics never lie, but Statisticians do." The confounding element of the human influence. Both my research and art background taught me how to look at things more objectively to remove myself out of the equation. I discovered the art of research in that there are mathematical rules, yet certain elements carry more weight than others. This explains why things may or may not add up right. I also discovered in research, like in life there is a Confirmation Bias.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

We jump to our conclusion before weighing all the evidence in an objective manner. We are personally invested in a certain outcome so we do not equally consider alternative conclusions. Therefore we search for evidence that supports/confirms the outcome we desire and ignore the conflicting evidence that leads to a different conclusion then we want & believe in. Researchers do it often, after investing so much into their research and finding evidence that their theory or hypothesis was incorrect, instead of admitting their theory was wrong they find excuses to explain why their methodology (how they gathered the info) was wrong. These researches will blame themselves and "take one for the team" rather than to accept what they believe in, or who them believe in, what they base their theory on is wrong. Nobody likes to admit they are wrong. Accepting a reality that contradicts your personal belief is extremely difficult even for trained professionals.

Maybe you never enjoyed doing homework, but grew an appreciation for the rewards doing your homework & studying brings.

There is a difference between doing your homework, completing the assignment, and studying the information. Some people are quick studies and can do their homework, require the new information and past the test. For the quick studies, just completing their homework is efficient for passing the test. However, for most of us, we need to invest more time into studying new information. Additional studying is essential & required to gain a deeper understanding and application.

For information that I was already familiar with, had been exposed to in the past and made sense to me, I could make a personal connection with or relate to, I was a quick study. To information that was completely foreign to me and made no sense, I struggled with and it took a lot of studying to acquire. Studying about pathology, (i.e., narcissism & other personality disorders) made sense on a intellectual level, but I had trouble applying it to my own personal life because I could not personally relate to it, it made no sense, and I failed to make the connection. Everything I read about pathology from textbooks to self-help books refers to pathology as a personality disorder, which it is, but it is also much more than that -- it is a soul disorder which explains the lack of conscious from pathological people. It is this lack of conscious which gives them the ability to hurt others on purpose, lack remorse, because they actually find some level of pleasure in the pain of others, especially those who are closest to them.

The root of pathology is evil, to understand evil is to understand pathology.

To gain a better understanding of evil I went to the oldest & most reliable resource there is . . . the Holy Handbook. There are others, but this is the best because it has stood the test of time.

Do you know of any other books that talk about a pathological person's evil nature?A friend of mine has recommended a book called Emotional Vampires. I haven't gotten around to reading it yet or even purchasing the book, but the title alone has got my attention.

Just recently another friend of mine shared the following quote and I want to pass it on to you:

"According to ancient Asian philosophy, life is not a circle but a spiral. Every life lesson that has ever been presented to you (which means everything you have ever been through) will come back again, in some from, until you learn it. And the stakes each time will be higher. Whatever you have learned will bear greater fruit. Whatever you have failed to learn will bear harsher consequences.

The Buddha taught us that we each have one person to save-ourselves. Each of use gets one life in which to do that. This one. He also, allegedly, taught that we will not allow ourselves to awaken as long as we are doing something we don't feel good about." ~ Cheri Huber

In doing your homework and learning something new it is important to consider your style or modality of learning. There (4) elements to learning, hearing it which is Auditory, seeing it which is Visual, Tactile which is touch, and making a Personal/Emotional connection with ones own life. Auditory & Visual Learning are found in Traditional Learning Environments (schools, College, Workshops, etc). Students who can adapt to these styles are successful in school and those who can not "appear" to have a learning disability, until some great researchers discovered Tactile Learning. Tactile learners require information to be tangible, so that they can make connection & acquire the new information. Emotional Learners need the new information to connect with them on a personal level.

The most powerful learning takes place when we incorporate all our senses. This is very important to remember, especially in regards to relationships. We become conditioned to or attracted to a person when every aspect of our self is invested in that person. Unconsciously all of our senses are responding positively or negatively to another person. That is why you never have a second chance to make a first impression. It is crucial for species survival to make accurate assessments of situations regarding others. We need to quickly determine whether or not someone is a friend or foe. This absolute decision making is in our DNA because it serves a purpose. Once we determine if someone is a friend or foe that decision becomes solidified and is very difficult to change in any direction. Helpful tip to remind self to reserve our final decision until there has been sufficient time to consider all the evidence. If we are honest w/ourself and look back at our toxic relationship, our intuition did not fail us, we failed to listen to our intuition, or misinterpret the messages it was giving us. Perhaps the heightened flight response was confused for being a heightened arousal or attraction response. The increased heart rate & adrenalin rush can be confusing. In the beginning the toxic person is extremely deceptive & makes a very good impression and it is very hard to change first impressions even when there is evidence that states our first impression, or better yet the true nature of a person was wrong. As time goes by our connection strengths as we become even more attracted & conditioned to this toxic Counterfeit. Then the Devaluing & Discard happens and we must learn to "Unlove" toxic people or we remain in a State of Devastation to some degree or another. If you can learn to "Unlove" the toxic person before the Discard, then you can avoid the extremely painful Devastation Stage. There is still pain and sadness from ending a relationship, even a toxic one, but it is nothing like being Devastated from the Discard.

What is your Modality of Learning?

For me I am an emotional, visual, and tactile learner. You can tell me things over and over, you can write it out and I can read it over and over, but until I write it out myself w/paper & pen, visually see it myself, and objectively look at all the evidence myself, then make an emotional/personal connection to the new information I will miss the point. You can tell someone what to do through auditory or written words, you can physically show them how to do it, or supervise them & have them do it themselves. And the best way to know that you have learned something is to teach it to someone else.

Escaping the KoN is about, Searching for Truth, Finding Truth, Accepting Truth and Applying Truth to your life. Applying the Truth is difficult because is results in dramatically changing one's life and change is a challenge for most people.

All my life I was desperately searching for evidence that the N loved me, the Confirmation Bias, and that was not working, so I had to change how I went looking for Truth. Instead of looking for evidence on the N loves me, I looked for evidence on How the N loves me Not -- and the evidence of that stacked up, was over-whelming, very clear, so all that was left was Accepting and Applying the very painful truth of N loves me Not!

So how do we Learn to Unlove a toxic person? How do we un-condition ourself? How do we break the connection, so we can disconnect?

These are some things that have worked for me, so give them a try. The only thing you got to lose is a toxic relationship!

Let's start w/the first homework assignment of Writing It Out to Get It Out. This is a helpful tool many therapist utilize with their clients.

Have you made your S/He loves me Not list?

This is a list of all the things the toxic person has said or done to hurt you.

I know you have it in your head, but write it out on paper, this will make a huge difference in your life.

Have you written this out yet? If not, that is your Homework Assignment tonight!
This will help you get a new visual to see the N how s/he really is instead of how you want him/her to be.

In fact, let's add an additional assignment, for those who want to do extra credit, draw a picture of the N -- What does s/he look like to you w/out his/her mask? Break out the markers and go for it!

This is part (1) of your homework assignment.